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From "Jorge De Flon" <jdef...@netappsmexico.com>
Subject Re: [Juglist] Struts 2x vs larval Cocoon?
Date Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:26:38 GMT
Hi,

I am new in this forum and in cocoon, but it seems very promising.
I found your reply very interesting and complete too.

I also think that JSP are far from being the best solution, even with
struts. but I was using struts with velocity and it worked very well.
The doubts that I have about cocoon are performance and tools.
I work with XMLSpy from altova and it supports very well XML in general and
XSLT in particular. It is not integrated with cocoon but it is a very good
tool for the task (XSLT), so the only thing that I am dubitious is
performance: is there a benchmark or a comparison against something else
somewhere?

thanks for any commentary
Jorge DeFlon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org>
To: "cocoon users" <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Juglist] Struts 2x vs larval Cocoon?


> >
> > Thomas L Roche wrote:
> >
> > >Struts can do pure-XML: see
> > >
> > >http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-02-2002/jw-0201-strutsxslt_p.html
> > >
> > >But can Cocoon be made to handle JSPs? Why I ask:
> > >
> > >Yes, Cocoon is cool, and JSPs are icky-poo. If one is developing a new
> > >site, from scratch, Cocoon would seem to be the way to go. However,
> > >there are a lotta JSPs out there, and one can reasonably surmise that
> > >the vast majority of Java-ish websites have at least some legacy JSPs.
> > >So consider the possible thought processes of members of two groups of
> > >Javans as they plan future activity:
> > >
> > >
> > Like this (haven't tried it myself)?
> >
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/userdocs/generators/jsp-generator.html
> >
> > >* site developers/maintainers
> > >
> > >  Unfortunately only a tiny minority are at present fully XML/XSL
> > >  compliant. (I suspect: feel free to confirm/confront with real
> > >  data.) One suspects the vast majority are "vanilla" Model 1, with a
> > >  minority having gone to something like Struts, Velocity, etc. These
> > >  folks aren't especially stupid or lazy, but they've got other things
> > >  to do, and they've got legacy that is "good enough."
> > >
> > >  If a "typical enduser" is motivated enough to go XML-centric,
> > >  wouldn't it be a lot easier and less risky to migrate toward
> > >  something like Struts (2 or 2x), than to Big Bang straight to
> > >  Cocoon? (I know about Struts--I neglect Velocity etc because I know
> > >  so little about them.) Or is it Real Easy to migrate JSPs to XSPs?
> > >
> > >
> > Cocoon is what I like to think of as 2.0-centric.  Meaning it has a
> > higher "initial cost" but if used well, should
> > reduce your cost of maintaining it over time.  Its not the first release
> > that usually hurts, its the second...third...etc.
> > Costs go up as your software continues to develop.  Cocoon can help with
> > this by more completely seperating
> > your style, data, logic, etc.  (as you cross the learning curve of
> > Cocoon and use it in a couple apps, that learning curve goes down)
> >
> > Is Cocoon appropriate for you farm of dreamweaver users?  Probably not.
> >  But Really if you think about it neither is JSP.
> > (I hear Velocity is nice for that)  I suspect as the tools improve
> > Cocoon will be better for this as you can seperate your applications
> > more as far as logic and style and content, etc.  XSLT has a bit of a
> > learning curve, but I often wonder if I'd find it so hard if I were less
> > of a programmer type.  I think there is a lot more opportunity for
> > non-programmers to work with the style XSLT in the end.  But case in
> > point. . . those tools aren't there yet.
> >
> > I don't feel that its any less risky to adopt Struts and migrate to
> > Cocoon than just goto Cocoon with maybe JSPs running through the JSP
> > generator (based on the assumption that the JSP generator is a workable
> > solution) and migrate those to XSPs/etc over time.  The areas I'm most
> > concerned with Cocoon have to do with performance under load.  Then
> > again, if its good enough for NASA...... (no mars lander jokes or you
> > get thwapped!)
> >
> > >* tools builders
> > >
> > >  I'd like to work on Cocoon tooling, and I suspect many managers
> > >  would too. But they've gotta think about how much resource they can
> > >  devote to any particular project, and what the market for their
> > >  product would be. And, again, incrementality (of effort) and
> > >  marketing (of product) would both seem (IMHO) to favor going toward
> > >  Struts 2x.
> > >
> > >These concerns would be mitigated if there was an easier migration
> > >path to Cocoon. (I.e. a larval stage before going to pupa :-)
> > >Is there? Or am I missing something?
> > >
> > >
> > Above, you see the JSP-generator.  Next I give you XML-Form which even
> > states that its heavily influenced by struts.
> >
http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard.html
> >  -- Danger, its work in progress.  This is the last major hole in
> > Cocoon, its nearly plugged (hence the .81 version number), but it may
> > change a bit.
> >
> > * Principal flaws in Cocoon *
> >
> > The documentation is getting better but still sucks.
> >
> > The community that supports it is composed of XML and Avalon folks who
> > only occasionally delve into english explanations of what the heck
> > things are, preferring to speak XML-ian and Avalonian most of the time.
> >  (Watch a mail list and you'll see what I mean, in fact I don't think
> > any of them go a whole sentence without using SoC or IoC...and if you
> > don't know what those stand for well you'll feel pretty lost), where the
> > Struts folks are generally more geared towards the rest of us.
> >
> > Marketing problem.  What is Cocoon?  An XML Framework?  (well your
> > sources nor your output, nor your transformations necessarily have to be
> > in XML...really only the sitemap has to be XML...but then again IIRC
> > struts has XML config files too...),  A publishing framework?  (that
> > begs the question on what is publishing), you can have forms and reports
> > coming out of  Cocoon.
> > Where, Struts is an MVC framework for JSPs simple to say.
> >
> > Heavy.  Cocoon is heavier than JSP (assuming precompilation).  On the
> > other hand, I'll bet the caching and pooling pays off under load, but it
> > has a heavy init time.  The load testing I've done is very promising
though.
> >
> > In summary, If you are satisfied with *ick* JSPs (Java-ASPs, Inverted
> > Servlets) and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and never
> > could need or want for more stick with Struts.
> >
> > If you've got multiple content input types and sources,  transformation
> > types, styles, output types, etc. and want to lower cost of development
> > over time, I'll bet you'll probably win with Cocoon once you've mastered
> > XSLT and friends.  Do me a favor, don't develop a major application
> > around it without first understanding the concepts (and making sure the
> > team does).  There is nothing MORE cryptic than bad XSLT (and there are
> > even examples of it within Cocoon).
> >
> > Granted, if I were to work with a bunch of people today, this very
> > moment, who all knew JSP, and I had ambitious performance and load
> > requirements, I'd probably not choose Cocoon yet.  I've not used it in a
> > number of production situations like I have JSP.  I don't know what will
> > happen if I add 1.5 million requests.  (where I do know what will happen
> > with JSP).  But if I had a small->medium internal app that I  would have
> > to continue to maintain over time..  I'd probably use Cocoon.  Or if I
> > had a small website with a reasonable and/or predictable number of hits,
> > where maintainability was a principal concern I'd use Cocoon.
> >
> > Cocoon versus JSP is much like the PERL (or VB) versus Java argument if
> > today was 1998 or so.
> >
> > Anyhow, like I said, I feel its time to start moving toward Cocoon and
> > XML/XSLT.  Approach it like any other new technology.
> > Here are the sites using it, perhaps one would offer up the statistics
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/link/livesites.html.  I've given you more
> > reasons not to use Cocoon in this than TO, don't get me wrong, I think
> > JSP totally and completely sucks, but I wouldn't use Cocoon unless I had
> > the right team in place to make proper use of it and had passed the
> > proper learning curve.  (at  least not for a major, high load, mission
> > critical application).
> >
> > Cocoon is showing a lot of momentum, and I think is the future if not
> > the present.  I think anyone who isn't looking into it and its
> > underlying technologies is really doing themselves a disservice.
> >
> > I'm slowly migrating what little web-development I do these days towards
> > Cocoon and investing in learning its underlying technologies.  I even go
> > so far to advocate its use in certain situations.  (and maintain as I've
> > always maintained, that JSP sucks nearly as much as its parent...ASP).
> >  Some folks may think I'm jumping the gun.  Had the same problem when I
> > moved from VB to Java in 1998.  (still did some VB until around
mid-1999).
> >
> > (So now I shall be flamed by the Cocoon-crowd and the JSP crowd alike. .
> > . Thats how I shall know I'm right ;-) )
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> > PS - Cocoon is not the hammer, no matter the tool one can always create
> > crappy applications.  The question is whether you have to fight your
> > tool to create good ones.  I would argue you do for JSP.  (maybe others
> > feel differently)
> >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Juglist mailing list
> > >Juglist@trijug.org
> > >http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Juglist mailing list
> > Juglist@trijug.org
> > http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist
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