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From Todd Pierce <Todd.Pie...@hubbub.com.au>
Subject RE: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together
Date Wed, 05 Feb 2003 01:39:02 GMT
Interesting set of inferences ; P

"Many people whip up some struts-JSP based applications, which basically
become servlets, and then pretend that the problems are solved. I could list
a thousand ways this paradigm is garbage..." - So that's what I do?

"Struts is a horrible basis for business logic for a thousand reasons." -
Where did I say I use Struts for business logic?
"My advice to you is to use EJB and J2EE on the back end" - Right on, baby
"Cocoon on the web" - Hmm
"JDO for persistence"  - BMP

We use Struts for controlling requests, on web-tier, application layer. We
use templated JSPs for presentation, web-tier, presentation layer. You can
use Cocoon for this if you like, but I think cocoon's strength is publishing
data. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:derisor@arcor.de]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 February 2003 11:49 AM
To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together


Struts is a horrible basis for business logic for a thousand reasons.
Business logic best lives within an enterprise container and an application
server. The basis of concurrency, fault tolerance, transaction management,
clustering and the rest of the EJB contract make it pretty psycho to NOT use
it. I would NEVER EVER do anything important in any web framework, be it
cocoon or struts. No thanks the J2EE environment is the god of business
logic
as cocoon is, IMHO, the god of web presentation. Cocoon should be a CONSUMER
of the J2EE functionality and not make any decisions whatsoever.

Many people whip up some struts-JSP based applications, which basically
become servlets, and then pretend that the problems are solved. I could list
a thousand ways this paradigm is garbage, but I really don't have to because
other books do it quite well for me.

My advice to you is to use EJB and J2EE on the back end, cocoon on the web
end, JDO for persistence and Swing for complex clients.

-- Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Pierce" <Todd.Pierce@hubbub.com.au>
To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:36 AM
Subject: [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together


> Re the comment "Frameworks like struts mix functionality with
> presentation...".
>
> The presumption that functionality and presentation are mixed in Struts
> needs qualification. Struts is an application framework. It's most
valuable
> component is the application layer. The presentation layer don't have to
be
> JSP/taglib. You can serve out xml for presentation if you wish, or
(shudder)
> even Flash.
>
> Reasonable separation of functionality and presentation can be achieved
> using any framework, if you follow 2 simple rules: Rule 1 - ensure that
the
> application layer does not generate any presentation. Rule 2 - ensure that
> the presentation layer does not make any decisions. I use a tiles-based
> template system, with screens defined in an XML doc, but y'know,
what-ever.
>
> I'm not trying to sell Struts to hardened Cocoon users. I use both Cocoon
> and Struts, but not together. Cocoon for data delivery systems, because of
> its fantastic separation of content and presentation, and Struts for
> business applications simply because it's such a good application
framework.
> I don't believe either of these technologies should be considered to be a
> panacaea for the ills of the web world.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:derisor@arcor.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 February 2003 10:43 AM
> To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together
>
>
> Actually I'm an EJB specialist and I don't generally work on projects
> conducive to web interfaces. The complexity level of the stuff I do is too
> high. (Pharmaceutical industry and genetic research). My customers
generally
> require a higher range of functionality than a web interface can provide.
>
> That being said, I do, however, do some web work which is why I took up
the
> idea of cocoon. I use the same technique that I use for GUI programming.
> Basically a command centric architecture. I hate to say "struts is for
> amateurs" but it kind of is. It has low complexity and thus low
> functionality. It also has high cost in terms of content delivery and
> maintenance costs. I personally chose to avoid all that and let Java
objects
> do all the work and let the framework just concentrate on presentation.
> Enter
> cocoon.
>
> My programs consist of allot of specially designed generators that
generate
> pure data. Then I use XSLT to translate that into the appropriate media. I
> also use XSLT to output the forms though I am experimenting with reflexive
> techniques that I have used in GUI applications to make generation of
forms
> be based on reflexive command analysis.
>
> Frameworks like struts mix functionality with presentation, which IMHO is
a
> very bad thing. Its a high maintenance cost solution with a low
development
> cost. That is the wrong way around. To be professional you want high
> development cost and low maintenance cost. This causes your feature turn
> around, post release, to be much faster. Since you are able to react
quickly
> to the demands of your users, your company or customers win. The guy that
> slapped it together with low development costs may make some sales coming
> out
> the door, but will bleed customers as they seek more stable solutions with
> faster turn-around time for new features and fault correction.
>
> I guess that is a long way of saying, "put all your work into the back
end."
> Cocoon is perfect for this because you can develop custom generators to
> deliver data and let a web designer with a couple weeks of training worry
> about the XSLT translation. In the meantime your valuable programmer
> resources are implementing new features and stabilizing the product.
>
> Well that's my opinion on the matter.
>
> -- Robert
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Antonio Gallardo" <agallardo@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>
> To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together
>
>
> > Robert Simmons dijo:
> > > I dont think that using struts would be useful within an efficient
> > > cocoon site. Cocoon takes another approach to web development that is,
> > > in my opinion, superior to the jsp/struts approach.
> >
> > Thanks for the comment. I was trying to start learning about this stuff.
> >
> > As a bean specialist (a book writer) what tools you recommend to manage
> > all the beans stuff (creation, changes, etc.)
> >
> > Thanks for the comments.
> >
> > Antonio Gallardo
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> >
>
>
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