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From "Alexander Zirl" <>
Subject AW: Chicoon XForms online demo
Date Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:23:08 GMT
Hi *,

sorry for bothering in between, but can anyone point me to a nice Tutorial
on XForms? I've started trying out the samples and introduction that's
placed here: but it
seems to me that the Forms jar files have changed by now and do not match
the tutorial anymore (especially the package for the Form.js and its
doesn't seem to work anymore)

Thanks for any input.

Alexander Zirl

-----Urspr√ľngliche Nachricht-----
[] Im Auftrag
von Joern Turner
Gesendet: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:41 AM
Betreff: Re: Chicoon XForms online demo

Hello Paul,

Paul Joseph <pjoseph_98 <at>> writes:

> maybe a dumb question...but isn't a significant piece
> of XForm capability (Ex. the ability to work off-line)
> lost with a Server side XForm implementation...?
you're right - not all features might be available in a *pure* server-side
implementation but over 90% of the spec will still be available.

furthermore how many apps have you seen (especially in the web-app world)
that really need offline capabilities?

what i'd like to point out is this: is always depends on your concrete
requirements in a specific project how you will answer the question if
XForms is the right answer. XForms itself is defined independent of
any concrete device(which is its strength). naturally there will always be
clients that do not support the full feature set - just think of a 
pda or smart phone or even a voice application (would this make sense
to work offline?).

besides offline capability is not required by the spec and not 
even mentioned there.

Chiba (Chicoon) has a different approach; as server-side transcoding 
engine it allows you to generate the code appropriate for any type
of client. in our proof-of-concept implementation this happens 
to be a dump (script-less) browser and this is surely constrained
in some aspects. nevertheless you have the option to generate the
code that accomplishes all these features. in fact we have
another subproject that implements a full-featured client-side
XForms engine. it comes as an applet and runs in IE6 currently.
generally it's also workable in e.g. Firefox.

let me mention another thing. the fact that one or the other feature
may not work with a specific implementation or architecture was often
been used as an argument against XForms. this is IMHO this a 
statement of ignorance; consider the current world of form-processing
which couldn't be worse. there are no standards, there's repeating
effort in writing scripting code to do even the easiest validations
(not to speak of dependency handling).

XForms is a big step forward. it eliminates the need for writing
script code and builds on a clearly defined markup and processing
model. its feature-richness is not even found in proprietary form 
frameworks and in our work we made the experience that it's  extremly
extensible and adaptable for the widest range of applications.

please allow a last remark: Chiba (Chicoon) is a server-side
reference implementation (just to proove its possible ;) - the actual
processor sitting inside the webapp is independent of its environment and
can be used in any other java environment (also client-side or even

sorry if this answer was longer than you expected...
> Could Cocoon serve out the XForm XML(?) to the browser
> which is equipped with a XForm plugin?
sure, any simple httpd demon will do for that. - as long as you find a
fully-featured client (well, there are some but these are not open source or
free). - and your application has to define this client as standard for your
users - not always an option, especially in internet apps.



> thx
> Paul
> --- Joern Turner <joern.turner <at>> wrote:
> > Hello again,
> > 
> > for those interested in W3C XForms there's an online
> > demo of Chicoon under
> >
> > 
> > running the Chiba XForms processor in an Cocoon
> > installation. 
> > 
> > Comments welcome,
> > 
> > Joern Turner
> > -Chiba Project Admin-
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
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