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From robert burrell donkin <>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Create new commons-sandbox-dev mailing list
Date Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:43:34 GMT
On Tuesday, July 30, 2002, at 06:46 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:

> I'm not convinced it will work. It's entire aim appears to be to enable
> developers who are not working on sandboxed projects from having to listen
> to any discussion on sandboxed projects.

as the rationale said - the primary aim is to reduce the amount of traffic 
that jakarta committers who want to talk about sandbox components have to 
subscribe to.

the problem is that there are a number of jakarta committers who simply 
refuse to participate due to the high traffic on the commons-dev mailing 
list. the traffic is bad at the moment and will only get worse until 
something's done about it.

the sandbox was created as a place where jakarta committers could come and 
experiment. a crucial part of this is talking about these experiments. due 
to the high traffic on the commons-dev list, it is failing in this role at 
the moment.

> Any listener to sandbox will still have to listen to the main commons due
> to the vote.

only those who care about votes concerning promotions would have to 

> There are a bunch of negatives, firstly the developers of the proejcts
> solely in Commons will have no clue about what is coming in the sandbox.
> They would have no planning in place to adjust to depend on this and might
> sit and reinvent the wheel.

there should be enough overlap to ensure that this doesn't happen. most 
commons committers will remain subscribed to both lists. those who don't 
subscribe weren't interested anyway.

> Secondly, they would have no context when a vote happened. No idea as to
> whether it's a quick submission or a long drawn out submission of buggy
> code or somewhere in between.

agreed. but you're talking here only about votes concerning proposals.

it should be very easy to refer to the archives to find this context.

> Thirdly, they would not be able to be involved in half of the
> conversations. Where would I have a conversation about a plan to merge the
> IO and Net projects?

i agree that this is potentially a problem. these should happen on 

the way i see it is that most commons committers and most sandbox 
component-leaders will need to subscribe to both lists. those people who 
cannot accept the level of traffic on commons-dev cannot contribute to 
these discussions - but they aren't able to contribute anything to any 
discussion at the moment.

> It makes sense that developers on 'proper' Commons
> have more experience in Commons than those in the sandbox, so this
> proposal removes that experience from being available to new projects.

by forcing sandbox components to use the commons-dev list you're losing 
experience, not gaining it.

commons committers pay attention to sandbox components because they're 
interested in them. those committers who are interested in sandbox 
components will subscribe. those which aren't interested don't read the 
posts anyway. but by having a separate list, you'll allow those jakarta 
committers who will not subscribe to commons-dev due to the high traffic 
to do so.

> Fourthly, quiet sandbox projects like Util, Codec, Modeler, will happily
> vanish further from people's view.


> Lastly, any archive searches will have to check both lists to find out
> information on a project.

(i really can't imagine that you're giving this as a reason to veto)

> I'm going to have to be a -1 on this one.

i hope that you'll change your mind or we can get the necessary majority 
for this change.

> I'd prefer to just see a system in which, say Vfs knows it will involve a
> lot of communication, then they get a jakarta-commons-sandbox-vfs mail
> list or something to do their spammy discussion

if you think about your criticisms about creating a list for sandbox, 
these apply much more strongly to individual lists. the components in 
sandbox are just too small to justify separate lists (in terms of the 
number of active developers) and you'll certainly lose the espirit-de-corp 
we enjoy at the moment.

- robert

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