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From Thomas Neidhart <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Mission Statement for Commons...
Date Mon, 07 Oct 2013 21:09:09 GMT
On 10/06/2013 09:44 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> James,
> thank you.
> I believe Commons is in a bad shape.
> Look at Commons Collections. Before 4 years somebody
> said Guava is more modern, he his answer seems to be widely accepted.
> This guy said we have no generics. What did we do in the past 4 years?
> Nothing. At least nothing visible. Its fine we have a beta. I wonder why
> we haven't managed
> to officially release this? The last release is from 2008.
> I did consider to put my JSON component to Commons. But I didn't.
> Reason: I really need the component
> and I calculated how long it would take to release it here. I thought,
> it's not helping me
> to develop it here. I simply don't have the time.
> I thought a long while about it.
> We had discussions like: do we really need Generics? It works without!
> Do we really drop an outdated JDK? We might have users
> who run JDK 1.3! And so on. Finally this led us to the situation where
> almost all of our users seem to have JDK 1.3 and
> are not interested in generics - in 2013. The users who want modern
> features go to Guava. We maintain legacy code. And seriously, a lot of
> code works without generics. This is no reason to not include them.
> We discuss magic strings in the sandbox. Why? We don't need to discuss
> that. Before we release we can simply check Sonar. Safe the time to
> discuss. Fix it or leave it to Sonar to report it.
> We seem to think perfect documentation is more valuable then quick
> releases. Is it?
> We seem to be proud of our build. I am not. It's complex. It's no fun.
> Releases should be do-able in a short time, maybe
> even automated.
> It is so sad that lot of good features like Collections with Generics
> were blocked such a long time or drowning in discussions.
> I agree we should support old users. But if we don't have the manpower,
> we can't support them. They need to accept we are moving on. We are
> blocked with our backwards compatible ideas and innovation is far away.
> When I spoke to young developers about Commons they asked me if it still
> exists. Nobody of them is interested in our community.
> For the mission statement I would wish to see things like that:
> Commons Components…
> …are released quickly and often
> …do use modern JDKs and support old JDKs only as long as they are
> supported by Oracle
> …we make use of modern Java features when they are available
> …can be easily released
> …can be released without having 100% perfect documentation or perfect
> implementations
> …are build by Community who wants to learn, experiment and create new
> features more than by Community which wants to be backwards compatible
> for a long time
> …are allowed to release major versions with api breaks as they want

+1 on all the points above.

And I would also like to repeat again that we should not be too afraid
to make components dormant which have no community anymore and / or have
not seen a release in X years.

If new people show up and want to revive a component - perfect, but we
should better focus our sparse resources on things that are innovative
and widely used.

>From my personal experience, it is also much more fun to work with
multiple people on a component and being able to have discussions on the
mailing list rather than being the sole remaining committer / maintainer.


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