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From Konstantin Boudnik <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Collaboration process at Ignite
Date Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:38:16 GMT
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 11:29PM, Raul Kripalani wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 10:41 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <cos@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 10:20PM, Raul Kripalani wrote:
> > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 9:37 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <cos@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > That's a good idea. However, decisions made on the chat _have_ to be
> > > > recorded in the email.
> > >
> > > Actually, I'd like to drill into that.
> > >
> > > It's not a matter of *recording* a decision taken in a chat, but
> > recording
> > > the *content* of the discussion, along with possible options to move
> > > forward. Discussions can start spontaneously in a chat, regardless of
> > who's
> > > actually present. It would be unfair for decisions to be taken in absence
> > > of others who simply weren't around at the time.
> >
> > I am not arguing with this. And I am not saying that a decisions from a
> > chat
> > should be followed by anyone if the consensus weren't reached. The point I
> > am
> > making is that off-line discussions have to be recorded (either as email or
> > JIRA, depends on how the project operates) for future reference, if they
> > have
> > _any_ impact on the project.
> >
> 
> You initially said that *decisions* have to be recorded in Apache media,
> and that's what I was objecting to. You then changed your terminology and I
> agree with this last stance of yours.

Yeah, I guess I wasn't very precise, was I? Appreciate the clarification.

> In my view, decisions of significance should *not* be taken in chat, and
> then reported to the mailing lists. That's already too late. Decisions
> should be taken *in the mailing lists* with exposure to the entire
> community. In other words, a discussion in chat developing into a
> significant change should be moved over to the mailing list *before* a
> decision is taken.

Semi-agree: let's consider a decision which is made on the chat by a
significant part of the community and then got recorder on the list or JIRA.
At this point the rest of community, not exposed to the chat discussion, has
the change to chime and object or correct it. That where the consensus focal
point is. So, I guess we are talking about the same semantics but in a
somewhat different form.

Cos

> > > The decision itself should be taken in the mailing list – thus giving the
> > > entire community to voice out their opinion. If the changes are if the
> > > changes are substantial, structural or of significant impact, a VOTE is
> > > recommended by The Apache Way [1], and it's useful for the poster to
> > > indicate if lazy consensus applies. For smaller things, it suffices to
> > open
> > > a JIRA task and explain what was done and why.
> >
> > While your reference is certainly correct, the Apache Way isn't based on
> > voting. Apache Way is based on an explicit or an implicit consensus.
> > Voting-based system is a democracy; fortunately Apache isn't one. But let's
> > not go in this direction - it has been covered multiple times elsewhere.
> >
> 
> I never said that the Apache Way was based on voting. How you arrived to
> that conclusion, I don't understand. All I said is that changes that are
> substantial, structural or of significant impact should be voted. That's
> what the The Apache Way advocates. In practice, those will be only a
> handful.
> 
> 
> > Cos
> >
> > > Sorry to be a PITA; but I'm sharing what has worked in other projects I'm
> > > involved in for the benefit and evolution of Ignite.
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > *Raúl Kripalani*
> > > Apache Camel PMC Member & Committer | Enterprise Architect, Open Source
> > > Integration specialist
> > > http://about.me/raulkripalani | http://www.linkedin.com/in/raulkripalani
> > > http://blog.raulkr.net | twitter: @raulvk
> >

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