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From Sergi Vladykin <sergi.vlady...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Fri, 16 Nov 2018 13:27:46 GMT
I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.

Sergi

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <vololo100@gmail.com>:

> Oleg,
>
> I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> >
> > Oleg,
> >
> > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
> > once again.
> >
> > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org>:
> >
> > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure
> it
> > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to
> spread
> > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> > > input is needed.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dmitry,
> > > >
> > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for
> us.
> > > We
> > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > > pointed
> > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > > healthy
> > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf
> members
> > > > as
> > > > > well.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from
> Jira
> > > > > issue created.
> > > > >
> > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> useful to
> > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com
> >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira,
but
> jira
> > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and
all
> > > > activity
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it
is not
> > > useful
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we
can
> continue
> > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for
all
> > > community
> > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very
useful.
> > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely,
but
> dev
> > > > list
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated
messages and
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously
have too
> much
> > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether
we
> > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important
at all,
> > > > provided
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And
as far as
> > > > generated
> > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our
mentors during
> > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs
treat all
> these
> > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem,
one PMC
> > > proposed
> > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another
PMC,
> answered -
> > > > "I
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC,
who also
> filters
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC,
who are
> > > expected
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot
of
> activities,
> > > find
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in
order to ...
> well
> > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans
do not find
> > > these
> > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can
benefit from
> > > them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov
<
> > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
filter.
> > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write
to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev
list.
> > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to
dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace
any of these
> > > points.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message
from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets
should be
> > > notified
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to
everyone.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
Pavlov <
> > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
filter.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done
by contributors
> in
> > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are
made off the list
> and
> > > just
> > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really
signs poor
> > > community
> > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with
JIRA messages
> it is
> > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development.
If we don't
> have it,
> > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30,
Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly
and
> community-friendly,
> > > > then
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development
process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care
about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are
open for everyone, so
> no
> > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate
mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy
to search through, as
> the
> > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev
list, then only the
> > > once,
> > > > > who
> > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email
filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because
it will get lost
> among
> > > the
> > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving
the JIRA
> > > notifications,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
ignite-jira)
> mailing
> > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens
there. It would
> simplify
> > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
corresponding
> recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter
out all messages from
> > > bots,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics,
that bots may
> generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only
grows with time,
> the
> > > > filter
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise
messages will spill
> into
> > > > the
> > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в
17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision
is the openness of
> the
> > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors
pay attention to run
> their
> > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features,
and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along
the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA
from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is
an only way to keep Ignite
> > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to
dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that
all contributors
> announce
> > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed.
Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve
by removing JIRA from
> the
> > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г.
в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
generated
> messages
> > > to a
> > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most
important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about
it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes
the Nabble portal an
> absolute
> > > > mess
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search
for old discussions,
> because
> > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit
messages pop in the search
> > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person
configure email filters is
> > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many
human-hours has been
> spent on
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time
of others, and make the
> > > > separation
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018
г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to
run a formal vote on this
> change,
> > > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse)
a separate list for messages
> from
> > > > Git
> > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб.
2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say
that "set the filter" is not a
> > > > solution.
> > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible
technically. E.g. I use
> GMail and
> > > > my
> > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use
a rule. I cannot extract
> generated
> > > > emails
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail
capabilities. But the more
> important
> > > > > things
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place
someone needs to went through
> that
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages
is a spam. Looks like everyone
> > > agrees
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket
creation - this is all about
> > > > importance.
> > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the
devlist, this is likely to be
> > > > important
> > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention.
When someone creates a ticket,
> most
> > > > likely
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of
already discussed issue, or so. In
> > > other
> > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely
to be interested in manual
> > > messages
> > > > > and
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested
in "Ticket created" messages.
> Not
> > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows
important. Let's continue
> disucssion
> > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as
Git - what should be done to
> remove Git
> > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov
6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy
> Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr,
some manual digest, is probably not
> > > needed
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing
to digest.
> > > > > > > > > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this
correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт,
6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Can be Jira notifications united in some
> kind
> > > > of
> > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Maybe we can add special filter (new
> tasks /
> > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy
> Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> I should mention I disagree to remove
> JIRA
> > > > > issues
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> helps everyone to understand what other
> > > > people
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> project.  You always can comment if it
> is
> > > not
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> duplicate issue, and you may suggest
> help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> PR notification is more or less
> duplicates
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> But we should keep JIRA and test
> failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA
> (very
> > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails
> from
> > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> May by we try to move GitBox &
> PRs-related
> > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Ivan Pavlukhin
>

Mime
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