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From Vladimir Ozerov <voze...@gridgain.com>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:03:05 GMT
Dmitry,

I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us. We
are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were pointed
to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with healthy
community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org> wrote:

> What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members as
> well.
>
> I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> issue created.
>
> If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> keep forwarding.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>:
>
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > What Apache member do you refer to?
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> >
> > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > >
> > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > removal
> > > does not make any sense for me.
> > >
> > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity
> > from
> > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful
> to
> > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
> > >
> > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > >
> > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> > > should
> > > > be human-only.
> > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> community
> > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> tickets
> > > and
> > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > > generated
> > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> > > that
> > > > we
> > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > > > stuff,
> > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > incubation
> > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > > > message
> > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > >
> > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > messages -
> > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > > solution
> > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I
> do
> > > not
> > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> these
> > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > >
> > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected
to
> > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find
> it
> > > > useful
> > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > > > generated
> > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> > about
> > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors
in
> future.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and
just
> > > > provided
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> > > health.
> > > > So
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it
is
> > > reasonable
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have
it,
> JIRA
> > > > should
> > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov
<
> > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly,
then
> we
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone,
so no
> > openness
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as
the
> emails.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the
once,
> who
> > > > spent
> > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among
the
> > flood
> > > of
> > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications,
> you
> > > > could
> > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing
list,
> > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> > > filtering,
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from
bots,
> you
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time,
the filter
> > > > should
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill
into the
> > > inbox.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov
<
> > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness
of the
> > > development.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run
their
> > > development
> > > > > in
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep
Ignite
> > development
> > > > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
announce
> > important
> > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from
the list?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov
<
> > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated
messages to a
> > > > separate
> > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal
an absolute mess
> > > with
> > > > no
> > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions,
because
> > > messages
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the
search
> results.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters
is waisting
> > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been
spent on it.
> > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make
the separation
> > of
> > > > > emails
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy
Pavlov <
> > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on
this change, and
> then
> > > PMC
> > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for
messages from Git
> > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter"
is not a solution.
> > > First,
> > > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g.
I use GMail and my
> > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract
generated emails
> > > from
> > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the
more important
> things
> > -
> > > is
> > > > > why
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went
through that
> > generated
> > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks
like everyone agrees
> with
> > > > that.
> > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is
all about importance.
> > When
> > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is
likely to be important
> > > topic
> > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates
a ticket, most likely
> > > this
> > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue,
or so. In other
> > > words -
> > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested
in manual messages
> and
> > is
> > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created"
messages. Not
> > important
> > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue
disucssion
> this.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be
done to remove Git
> > > messages
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM
Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest,
is probably not needed
> > > because
> > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г.
в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications
united in some kind of
> > > daily
> > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special
filter (new tasks /
> > updates
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018,
at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention
I disagree to remove JIRA
> issues
> > > as
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone
to understand what other people
> > are
> > > > > going
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always
can comment if it is not
> the
> > > > best
> > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue,
and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification
is more or less duplicates JIRA
> > > (as 1
> > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move
Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep
JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб.
2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter
for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > useful, I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without
visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just
deleting tons of e-mails from
> > GitBox
> > > &
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know
what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try
to move GitBox & PRs-related
> mails
> > > > first
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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