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From Vladimir Ozerov <voze...@gridgain.com>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:23:28 GMT
Dmitry,

What Apache member do you refer to?

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:

> How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
>
> Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira removal
> does not make any sense for me.
>
> Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity from
> github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
> allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> members and users who is subscribed to the list.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
>
> > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > Emails to everyone are not.
> >
> > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> should
> > be human-only.
> > So separate list is the only way.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets
> and
> > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > generated
> > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> that
> > we
> > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > stuff,
> > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > message
> > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > >
> > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> messages -
> > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > solution
> > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do
> not
> > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > >
> > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> > useful
> > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > generated
> > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > >
> > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > >
> > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > > > updates.
> > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > >
> > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > > >
> > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > provided
> > > as
> > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> health.
> > So
> > > > for
> > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> reasonable
> > > to
> > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> > should
> > > > > remain here.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then
we
> > > should
> > > > > make
> > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> > > would
> > > > be
> > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who
> > spent
> > > > half
> > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood
> of
> > > > spam
> > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you
> > could
> > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> filtering,
> > > > > because
> > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots,
you
> > > should
> > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the
> inbox.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the
> development.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their
> development
> > > in
> > > > an
> > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development
> > > easy
> > > > to
> > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > > > > features
> > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov
<
> > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages
to a
> > separate
> > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute
mess
> with
> > no
> > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because
> messages
> > > > about
> > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search
results.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> > > everybody's
> > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent
on it.
> > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation
of
> > > emails
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov
<
> > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change,
and then
> PMC
> > > > chair
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages
from Git
> > repos.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir
Ozerov <
> > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not
a solution.
> First,
> > > it
> > > > is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use
GMail and my
> > dev-list
> > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated
emails
> from
> > > > > overall
> > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important
things -
> is
> > > why
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through
that generated
> > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone
agrees with
> > that.
> > > > As
> > > > > > far
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about
importance. When
> > > > someone
> > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to
be important
> topic
> > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket,
most likely
> this
> > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so.
In other
> words -
> > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual
messages and is
> > > very
> > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages.
Not important
> > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion
this.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove
Git
> messages
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov
<
> > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably
not needed
> because
> > > > Apache
> > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > if
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28,
Petr Ivanov <
> > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united
in some kind of
> daily
> > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter
(new tasks / updates
> > > during
> > > > > > last
> > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15,
Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree
to remove JIRA issues
> as
> > > the
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand
what other people are
> > > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can
comment if it is not the
> > best
> > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you
may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or
less duplicates JIRA
> (as 1
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages
to
> > > > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and
test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г.
в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail
from JIRA (very useful, I
> > can
> > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting
JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting
tons of e-mails from GitBox
> &
> > > > about
> > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for
we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move
GitBox & PRs-related mails
> > first
> > > > and
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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