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From Denis Magda <dma...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:13:37 GMT
Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
input is needed.

--
Denis

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>
wrote:

> Dmitry,
>
> I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us. We
> are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were pointed
> to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with healthy
> community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> as
> > well.
> >
> > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > issue created.
> >
> > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > keep forwarding.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>:
> >
> > > Dmitry,
> > >
> > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > >
> > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > >
> > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > removal
> > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > >
> > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> activity
> > > from
> > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful
> > to
> > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev
> list
> > > > should
> > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > community
> > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> > tickets
> > > > and
> > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> provided
> > > > that
> > > > > we
> > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> generated
> > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > incubation
> > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> Splitting
> > > > > message
> > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > > messages -
> > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > > > solution
> > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered
-
> "I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> > these
> > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected
> to
> > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities,
find
> > it
> > > > > useful
> > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well
> ...
> > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find
these
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from
them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these
points.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> > > about
> > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpavlov@apache.org
> > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors
in
> > future.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list
and just
> > > > > provided
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor
community
> > > > health.
> > > > > So
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages
it is
> > > > reasonable
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't
have it,
> > JIRA
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov
<
> > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly,
> then
> > we
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone,
so no
> > > openness
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for
bots.
> > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through,
as the
> > emails.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only
the once,
> > who
> > > > > spent
> > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see
it.
> > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost
among the
> > > flood
> > > > of
> > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications,
> > you
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
mailing
> list,
> > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would
simplify
> > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
recipient.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages
from bots,
> > you
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may
generate.
> > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with
time, the
> filter
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will
spill into
> the
> > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy
Pavlov <
> > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness
of the
> > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention
to run their
> > > > development
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to
keep Ignite
> > > development
> > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
announce
> > > important
> > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA
from the
> list?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis
Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated
messages to a
> > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal
an absolute
> mess
> > > > with
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions,
because
> > > > messages
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop
in the search
> > results.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email
filters is waisting
> > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours
has been spent on
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and
make the
> separation
> > > of
> > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote
on this change, and
> > then
> > > > PMC
> > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list
for messages from
> Git
> > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в
16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
filter" is not a
> solution.
> > > > First,
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically.
E.g. I use GMail and
> my
> > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot
extract generated
> emails
> > > > from
> > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
But the more important
> > things
> > > -
> > > > is
> > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs
to went through that
> > > generated
> > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks
like everyone agrees
> > with
> > > > > that.
> > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this
is all about
> importance.
> > > When
> > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this
is likely to be
> important
> > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates
a ticket, most
> likely
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
issue, or so. In other
> > > > words -
> > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested
in manual messages
> > and
> > > is
> > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
created" messages. Not
> > > important
> > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's
continue disucssion
> > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should
be done to remove Git
> > > > messages
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49
PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest,
is probably not needed
> > > > because
> > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018
г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications
united in some kind
> of
> > > > daily
> > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add
special filter (new tasks /
> > > updates
> > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification
scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018,
at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention
I disagree to remove JIRA
> > issues
> > > > as
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone
to understand what other
> people
> > > are
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project. 
You always can comment if it is not
> > the
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate
issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification
is more or less duplicates
> JIRA
> > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok
to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should
keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб.
2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have
filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > > useful, I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there
without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm
just deleting tons of e-mails from
> > > GitBox
> > > > &
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't
know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by
we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
> > mails
> > > > > first
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey
Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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