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From Dmitriy Pavlov <dpav...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:10:07 GMT
How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?

Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira removal
does not make any sense for me.

Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity from
github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
members and users who is subscribed to the list.

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:

> Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> Emails to everyone are not.
>
> +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list should
> be human-only.
> So separate list is the only way.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> generated
> > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that
> we
> > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> stuff,
> > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> message
> > flows will help us understand where we are.
> >
> > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> solution
> > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> >
> > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> useful
> > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> generated
> > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dmitriy,
> > >
> > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > >
> > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > >
> > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > > updates.
> > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > >
> > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > >
> > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > >
> > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> provided
> > as
> > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health.
> So
> > > for
> > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable
> > to
> > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> should
> > > > remain here.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > >
> > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> > should
> > > > make
> > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who
> spent
> > > half
> > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood
of
> > > spam
> > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you
> could
> > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > > because
> > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you
> > should
> > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter
> should
> > be
> > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > > > >
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development
> > in
> > > an
> > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > >
> > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development
> > easy
> > > to
> > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > > > features
> > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a
> separate
> > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess
with
> no
> > > > > ability
> > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages
> > > about
> > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> > everybody's
> > > > > time.
> > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation
of
> > emails
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpavlov@apache.org
> > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and
then PMC
> > > chair
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from
Git
> repos.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov
<
> > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution.
First,
> > it
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail
and my
> dev-list
> > > > > emails
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated
emails from
> > > > overall
> > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important
things - is
> > why
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that
generated
> > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees
with
> that.
> > > As
> > > > > far
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance.
When
> > > someone
> > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important
topic
> > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most
likely this
> > > > either a
> > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In
other words -
> > > > average
> > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages
and is
> > very
> > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not
important
> > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion
this.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove
Git messages
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov
<
> > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not
needed because
> > > Apache
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > > if
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr
Ivanov <
> > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in
some kind of daily
> > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new
tasks / updates
> > during
> > > > > last
> > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy
Pavlov <
> > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to
remove JIRA issues as
> > the
> > > > > first
> > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what
other people are
> > going
> > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment
if it is not the
> best
> > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest
help.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less
duplicates JIRA (as 1
> > > JIRA
> > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages
to
> > > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test
failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from
JIRA (very useful, I
> can
> > > > quick
> > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons
of e-mails from GitBox &
> > > about
> > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need
them?
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox
& PRs-related mails
> first
> > > and
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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