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From Dmitriy Pavlov <dpav...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Fri, 16 Nov 2018 10:11:50 GMT
Oleg,

excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
once again.

Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org>:

> Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
> bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
> the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> input is needed.
>
> --
> Denis
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us.
> We
> > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> pointed
> > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> healthy
> > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> > as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > > issue created.
> > >
> > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > > keep forwarding.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>:
> > >
> > > > Dmitry,
> > > >
> > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > > removal
> > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > activity
> > > > from
> > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> useful
> > > to
> > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> community
> > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but
dev
> > list
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages
and
> > > community
> > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too
much
> > > tickets
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> accumulate
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> > provided
> > > > > that
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far
as
> > generated
> > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > > incubation
> > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > Splitting
> > > > > > message
> > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all
these
> > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> proposed
> > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered
-
> > "I
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also
filters
> > > these
> > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> expected
> > to
> > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities,
> find
> > > it
> > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to
... well
> > ...
> > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not
find
> these
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit
from
> them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev
list.
> > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of
these
> points.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA
bot.
> > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should
be
> notified
> > > > about
> > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov
<
> > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors
in
> > > future.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the
list and
> just
> > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs
poor
> community
> > > > > health.
> > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages
it is
> > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we
don't have it,
> > > JIRA
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov
<
> > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly,
> > then
> > > we
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for
everyone, so no
> > > > openness
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list
for bots.
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
through, as the
> > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then
only the
> once,
> > > who
> > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will
see it.
> > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will
get lost among
> the
> > > > flood
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> notifications,
> > > you
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
mailing
> > list,
> > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It
would simplify
> > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
recipient.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all
messages from
> bots,
> > > you
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots
may generate.
> > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows
with time, the
> > filter
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages
will spill into
> > the
> > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy
Pavlov <
> > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the
openness of the
> > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention
to run their
> > > > > development
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the
list.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way
to keep Ignite
> > > > development
> > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
announce
> > > > important
> > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now
it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing
JIRA from the
> > list?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34,
Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
generated messages
> to a
> > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important
ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble
portal an absolute
> > mess
> > > > > with
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
discussions, because
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages
pop in the search
> > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure
email filters is
> waisting
> > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours
has been spent on
> > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others,
and make the
> > separation
> > > > of
> > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в
13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal
vote on this change,
> and
> > > then
> > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate
list for messages from
> > Git
> > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г.
в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set
the filter" is not a
> > solution.
> > > > > First,
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically.
E.g. I use GMail and
> > my
> > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule.
I cannot extract generated
> > emails
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
But the more important
> > > things
> > > > -
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone
needs to went through that
> > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam.
Looks like everyone
> agrees
> > > with
> > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation
- this is all about
> > importance.
> > > > When
> > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist,
this is likely to be
> > important
> > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone
creates a ticket, most
> > likely
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
issue, or so. In
> other
> > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be
interested in manual
> messages
> > > and
> > > > is
> > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
created" messages. Not
> > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important.
Let's continue disucssion
> > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what
should be done to remove Git
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018
at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual
digest, is probably not
> needed
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to
digest.
> > > > > > > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб.
2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira
notifications united in some kind
> > of
> > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can
add special filter (new tasks /
> > > > updates
> > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification
scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6
Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should
mention I disagree to remove JIRA
> > > issues
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps
everyone to understand what other
> > people
> > > > are
> > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.
 You always can comment if it is
> not
> > > the
> > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate
issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification
is more or less duplicates
> > JIRA
> > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be
ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we
should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт,
6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I
have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > > > useful, I
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there
without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And
I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from
> > > > GitBox
> > > > > &
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I
don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May
by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
> > > mails
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
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Mime
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