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From Павлухин Иван <vololo...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Fri, 16 Nov 2018 10:57:56 GMT
Oleg,

I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
>
> Oleg,
>
> excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
> once again.
>
> Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org>:
>
> > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
> > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
> > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> > input is needed.
> >
> > --
> > Denis
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dmitry,
> > >
> > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us.
> > We
> > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > pointed
> > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > healthy
> > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> > > as
> > > > well.
> > > >
> > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > > > issue created.
> > > >
> > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > > > keep forwarding.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > >
> > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but
jira
> > > > > removal
> > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > > activity
> > > > > from
> > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> > useful
> > > > to
> > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > community
> > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely,
but dev
> > > list
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages
and
> > > > community
> > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have
too much
> > > > tickets
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether
we
> > accumulate
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important
at all,
> > > provided
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as
far as
> > > generated
> > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors
during
> > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > > Splitting
> > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat
all these
> > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one
PMC
> > proposed
> > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC,
answered -
> > > "I
> > > > do
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who
also filters
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who
are
> > expected
> > > to
> > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities,
> > find
> > > > it
> > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order
to ... well
> > > ...
> > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do
not find
> > these
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit
from
> > them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to
dev list.
> > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev
list.
> > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any
of these
> > points.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from
JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should
be
> > notified
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
Pavlov <
> > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
contributors in
> > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made
off the list and
> > just
> > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really
signs poor
> > community
> > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA
messages it is
> > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If
we don't have it,
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
community-friendly,
> > > then
> > > > we
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development
process.
> > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about
it.
> > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open
for everyone, so no
> > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing
list for bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
through, as the
> > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list,
then only the
> > once,
> > > > who
> > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters
will see it.
> > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it
will get lost among
> > the
> > > > > flood
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving
the JIRA
> > notifications,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
mailing
> > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there.
It would simplify
> > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out
all messages from
> > bots,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that
bots may generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows
with time, the
> > > filter
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages
will spill into
> > > the
> > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58,
Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision
is the openness of the
> > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
attention to run their
> > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features,
and
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from
the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only
way to keep Ignite
> > > > > development
> > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev.
list.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
contributors announce
> > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed.
Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by
removing JIRA from the
> > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в
17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
generated messages
> > to a
> > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important
ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it
here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the
Nabble portal an absolute
> > > mess
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search
for old discussions, because
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages
pop in the search
> > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure
email filters is
> > waisting
> > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours
has been spent on
> > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of
others, and make the
> > > separation
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г.
в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a
formal vote on this change,
> > and
> > > > then
> > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a
separate list for messages from
> > > Git
> > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018
г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that
"set the filter" is not a
> > > solution.
> > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible
technically. E.g. I use GMail and
> > > my
> > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule.
I cannot extract generated
> > > emails
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
But the more important
> > > > things
> > > > > -
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone
needs to went through that
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is
a spam. Looks like everyone
> > agrees
> > > > with
> > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation
- this is all about
> > > importance.
> > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist,
this is likely to be
> > > important
> > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When
someone creates a ticket, most
> > > likely
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already
discussed issue, or so. In
> > other
> > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely
to be interested in manual
> > messages
> > > > and
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in
"Ticket created" messages. Not
> > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important.
Let's continue disucssion
> > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git -
what should be done to remove Git
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6,
2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some
manual digest, is probably not
> > needed
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing
to digest.
> > > > > > > > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб.
2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be
Jira notifications united in some kind
> > > of
> > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe
we can add special filter (new tasks /
> > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA
> > > > issues
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
helps everyone to understand what other
> > > people
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
project.  You always can comment if it is
> > not
> > > > the
> > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
PR notification is more or less duplicates
> > > JIRA
> > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
<notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
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вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from
> > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
> > > > mails
> > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
--
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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-- 
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin

Mime
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