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From Павлухин Иван <vololo...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:06:53 GMT
Hi,

In my opinion there should be only development discussions and
important notifications on dev list. But I must say that I started to
look through Jira and even GitHub notifications from time to time. And
I find that it sometimes gives me a useful information like
"contributor A is doing B". But I think that there will be no harm for
me to check it on different mail list.
чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 20:11, Vladimir Ozerov <vozerov@gridgain.com>:
>
> Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
> stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
> can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
> this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
> flows will help us understand where we are.
>
> And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
> - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
>
> Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
> to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
> emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitriy,
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> >
> > How do JIRA messages help?
> > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> >
> > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > updates.
> > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > >
> > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > >
> > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> > for
> > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > > remain here.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <dmekhanikov@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> > > make
> > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would
> > be
> > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > >
> > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> > half
> > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> > spam
> > > > messages from bots.
> > > >
> > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > because
> > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > >
> > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > >
> > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development
in
> > an
> > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > >
> > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy
> > to
> > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > > features
> > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > > > mailing
> > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with
no
> > > > ability
> > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages
> > about
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> > > > time.
> > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of
emails
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then
PMC
> > chair
> > > > can
> > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git
repos.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution.
First, it
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and
my dev-list
> > > > emails
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails
from
> > > overall
> > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things
- is why
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees
with that.
> > As
> > > > far
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance.
When
> > someone
> > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important
topic
> > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely
this
> > > either a
> > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other
words -
> > > average
> > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages
and is very
> > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > > > information
> > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git
messages from
> > > the
> > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed
because
> > Apache
> > > > > list
> > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > > if
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov
<
> > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some
kind of daily
> > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks
/ updates during
> > > > last
> > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov
<
> > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove
JIRA issues as the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other
people are going
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if
it is not the best
> > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest
help.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates
JIRA (as 1
> > JIRA
> > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49,
Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA
(very useful, I can
> > > quick
> > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails
from GitBox &
> > about
> > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox &
PRs-related mails first
> > and
> > > > see
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >



-- 
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin

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