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From Nikolay Izhikov <nizhi...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Replacing default work dir from tmp to current dir
Date Thu, 03 Oct 2019 10:55:30 GMT
Pavel.

> As a user, why would I want to define a system-wide property just to use
> some library?

Why do you think Ignite is a library? 
May be the root of usability issues in using same distribution for a library and server side
dbms?


В Чт, 03/10/2019 в 13:40 +0300, Pavel Tupitsyn пишет:
> Ivan, which vendors place files into current work dir, can you please give
> an example?
> 
> > Generally IGNITE_HOME should be defined
> 
> This is an inconvenience for the users, bad usability.
> As a user, why would I want to define a system-wide property just to use
> some library?
> 
> > As for .NET. Should not we define IGNITE_HOME for it?
> 
> No, for the reasons stated above.
> 
> I'd like everyone to pay more attention to Maven/NuGet distribution
> scenario. Forget about zip archive for a while.
> As a user, I add a dependency to Ignite package and call Ignition.start().
> That's all, it should work right away, no env vars, no additional
> configuration.
> And current work dir should not matter, because different tools, IDEs and
> workflows dictate different work directories.
> 
> > user.home can be not writable as well
> 
> In this case users won't even be able to use Maven or NuGet, let's not
> consider those rare scenarios.
> 
> 
> To summarize: home directory is the way to go as a default location.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 12:14 PM Ivan Pavlukhin <vololo100@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > As for .NET. Should not we define IGNITE_HOME for it?
> > 
> > чт, 3 окт. 2019 г. в 12:13, Ivan Pavlukhin <vololo100@gmail.com>:
> > > 
> > > Folks,
> > > 
> > > I am with Ilya here. I remind that we are talking not about general
> > > case for Ignite usage. Generally IGNITE_HOME should be defined.
> > > Otherwise we fallback to a default, and user.dir usually points to a
> > > directory where java launcher command was called (work dir).
> > > 
> > > user.home seems to cause more surprises to me:
> > > * user.home can be undefined for JVM;
> > > * user.home can be not writable as well (e.g. some special service user).
> > > 
> > > And as far as know other vendors usually place files required for an
> > > application in current work dir.
> > > 
> > > чт, 3 окт. 2019 г. в 01:45, Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org>:
> > > > 
> > > > I was always expecting this to be a user *home* directory that can be
> > > > resolved in any operating system and will work for any language
> > 
> > supported
> > > > by Ignite. So, I'm with Pavel here.
> > > > 
> > > > Alex G, what's your thinking? Sounds like we need to change this one
> > 
> > more
> > > > time.
> > > > 
> > > > -
> > > > Denis
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 12:17 PM Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>
> > 
> > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Everyone above agreed to `~/ignite/work`, then somehow we jumped
to
> > > > > `user.dir/ignite/work`.
> > > > > To me `user.dir` looked like synonym for ~, but turns out this is
> > 
> > not true.
> > > > > I think others may be confused in the same way.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Denis Magda, Alexey Goncharuk, and others - please confirm that you
> > > > > understand that `user.dir` means current directory, not user home
> > > > > directory.
> > > > > 
> > > > > In my opinion, this is very broken. Current work dir can be literally
> > > > > anything, e.g.:
> > > > > `cd / && ~/my-ignite-app/run.sh` will cause an attempt to
create
> > 
> > ignite dir
> > > > > in system root, and so on.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 9:46 PM Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > 
> > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think this is a sensible default and it was certainly not
chosen
> > 
> > by
> > > > > > mistake. It was intentional expectation that your project is
> > 
> > started from
> > > > > > project root and data is located under it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If this breaks .Net, I am deeply sorry.
> > > > > > However, I think we should change .net to provide non-default
> > 
> > workdir
> > > > > > location when none is specified.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Can you please clarify scenarios that are broken now?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ср, 2 окт. 2019 г., 20:28 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Looks like we made a mistake while implementing IGNITE-12057:
> > > > > > > `user.dir` is NOT user home directory, it is where JVM
has been
> > 
> > started
> > > > > > > from, which is rather arbitrary.
> > > > > > > (Among other things this breaks Ignite.NET usage from tools
like
> > > > > 
> > > > > LINQPad,
> > > > > > > because `user.dir` ends up pointing to Program Files, which
is
> > 
> > not
> > > > > > > writable without elevation)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > We should use `user.home` system property instead, see
> > > > > > > 
> > 
> > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/environment/sysprop.html
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Thoughts, objections?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:57 PM Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Hello again!
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Please note that I have updated release notes for
IGNITE-12057
> > 
> > as
> > > > > well
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > added them for my ticket. Release Engineers, please
make sure
> > 
> > you
> > > > > > include
> > > > > > > > the latest one.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > пн, 2 сент. 2019 г. в 13:33, Ilya Kasnacheev
<
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I have pushed an amended fix to both master and
ignite-2.7.6.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > пт, 30 авг. 2019 г. в 21:48, Denis Magda
<dmagda@apache.org
> > > 
> > > :
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Ilya,
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I forgot to push "Send for review" button.
You can see my
> > 
> > minor
> > > > > > > comment
> > > > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 5:47 AM Ilya Kasnacheev
<
> > > > > > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Waiting for a minor comment from Denis,
as soon as I
> > 
> > see/fix it
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > to commit.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Ilya.
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > пт, 30 авг. 2019 г. в 11:30,
Alexey Goncharuk <
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > alexey.goncharuk@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Ilya,
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just curious, when are you planning
to commit your
> > 
> > changes to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > 2.7.6
> > > > > > > > > > > > branch?
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 28 авг. 2019 г. в 04:57,
Denis Magda <
> > 
> > dmagda@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, seems like we came to
a consensus. Let’s ensure
> > 
> > that the
> > > > > > > path
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > work dir is user.dir/ignite/work
and restart the vote.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019,
Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have took the liberty
to implement the change to
> > > > > 
> > > > > existing
> > > > > > > code
> > > > > > > > > > base
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > remove concern about
work/ directory:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/ignite/pull/6816/files
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some advocacy for this
patch:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minimal change.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Storing in user.dir/ignite/work
(current
> > 
> > directory, e.g.
> > > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > > > root)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > which is consistent
with behavior of unzipped binary
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > release.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We can re-use user.dir/ignite
for other uses in
> > 
> > the
> > > > > > future,
> > > > > > > > > > such as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > storing logs there.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have to admit that
my previous reaction to the
> > 
> > change
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > strong.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > turned out the default
was user.dir/work (project
> > 
> > root)
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > user.home/work (home
dir with imminent Work
> > 
> > collision).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, I think
that after this change it
> > 
> > would be
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > last for a few years.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 27 авг. 2019
г. в 18:28, Alexey Goncharuk <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > alexey.goncharuk@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the current
state of the project, we cannot
> > 
> > directly
> > > > > > > > compare
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > setup process to
the one of postgresql or another
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > database.
> > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > examples, an embedded
node (even with
> > 
> > persistence) is
> > > > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supposed to run
without any additional FS rights
> > 
> > grants
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > init
> > > > > > > > > > > > steps.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be changed
in 3.0, but not in a maintenance
> > 
> > release.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > change the directory
to /var/lib, I would rather
> > 
> > fail
> > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > node
> > > > > > > > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > asking a user to
explicitly provide work
> > 
> > directory path.
> > > > > > Let
> > > > > > > > > > alone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > /var/lib
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not portable
and I would not add an OS-switch
> > 
> > to the
> > > > > > code
> > > > > > > > > > for no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > reason.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for storing
the work in ~/ignite/work -
> > 
> > agree
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > Ilya
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > writing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > large amounts of
data in a hidden folder is a bad
> > 
> > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 27 авг.
2019 г. в 15:17, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that
user home maybe not the best place
> > 
> > from
> > > > > > Linux
> > > > > > > > > > > > > perspective
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy,
but  "user.home"/ignite/work  is
> > 
> > more or
> > > > > > less
> > > > > > > > > > > portable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the Linux
environment, we can add a
> > 
> > suggestion
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > where to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > persisted
data. For very first testing of Apache
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > home
> > > > > > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looks good
for me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 27 авг.
2019 г. в 11:56, Pavel Pereslegin <
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > xxtern@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or instead
of a WARNING, we can add a
> > 
> > suggestion
> > > > > with
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > recommendation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for the
production environment.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт,
27 авг. 2019 г. в 11:41, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
/opt is either does not exist on fresh
> > 
> > system, or
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > restriction:
no user access without admin
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > intervention.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
/usr/local, /var/lib, etc. — all this is
> > > > > 
> > > > > implemented
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > DEB /
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > RPM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > packages
already.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
For ZIP installation %HOME% seems to be the
> > 
> > best
> > > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "2-click"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > launch.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Later user can update preferences and set
> > 
> > working
> > > > > > dir
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > whatever
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directory
he would like.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Also — we can put WARNING message to log
> > 
> > noting
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > WORK_DIR
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> On 27 Aug 2019, at 10:16, Zhenya
> > 
> > Stanilovsky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <arzamas123@mail.ru.INVALID>
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> And what about /opt/ignite ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> copy-paste:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> "
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> The basic difference is that  /usr/local
> > 
> > is for
> > > > > > > > > > software
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > managed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > by the
system packager, but still following
> > 
> > the
> > > > > > standard
> > > > > > > > > > unix
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > deployment
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rules.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> That's why you have  /usr/local/bin ,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > /usr/local/sbin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  /usr/local/include
 etc...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> /opt  on the other hand is for software
> > 
> > that
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is deployed
in a monolithic fashion. This
> > 
> > usually
> > > > > > > includes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > commercial
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and/or
cross-platform software that is
> > 
> > packaged in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > "Windows"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > style. "
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > Понедельник, 26 августа 2019, 22:49
> > 
> > +03:00 от
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > Magda
> > > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmagda@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > I can't disagree with Nikolay that, as a
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > database,
> > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > needs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > persist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > changes to a folder different from
> > 
> > "user.home"
> > > > > > one.
> > > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > rate of project growth and adoption, I
> > 
> > would
> > > > > > > > encourage
> > > > > > > > > > us
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate
any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > possible obstacles a user might come
> > 
> > across
> > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > getting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > phase with Ignite. Unfortunately, folders
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "user.home"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > imply
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > a significant restriction - the user
> > 
> > needs to
> > > > > > allow
> > > > > > > > > > access
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > folders
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > /lib, /etc; which can make every getting
> > > > > 
> > > > > started
> > > > > > > demo
> > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > app
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fail.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > Thus, today, I'm casting my vote for
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > "user.home"/ignite/work
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directory.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > Please don't forget about Windows and
> > 
> > MacOS.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 7:09 AM Pavel
> > 
> > Tupitsyn
> > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ptupitsyn@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > +1 for  ~/.ignite/work
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > As Petr mentioned above, this
> > 
> > translates well
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > Windows
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MacOS
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too,
we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > can use "home directory" term in
> > 
> > documentation
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > works
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OS.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 4:03 PM Nikolay
> > > > > 
> > > > > Izhikov
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nizhikov@apache.org
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > AFAIK server admin expects software
> > 
> > will
> > > > > store
> > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > data
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /var/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > directory, not in /home directory.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > In Docker age, packages are becoming
> > > > > 
> > > > > extinct.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > I don't agree with that, but seems,
> > 
> > it's not
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > subject
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion.
:)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > we don't even have very good packages
> > 
> > today
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > Why do you think we don't have good
> > 
> > packages?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > What is wrong with the current one?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > I also think we should not copy what
> > 
> > other
> > > > > > DBMS
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > ease-of-use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > is usually lacking
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > We should define 'easy-of-use' here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > My experience with the modern
> > 
> > dbms(postgres
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > mysql)
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > different.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > В Пн, 26/08/2019 в 15:47 +0300, Ilya
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > пишет:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > I think it is 2., because if a node
> > 
> > is run
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > binary
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > distribution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > it has its root as a ignite work
> > 
> > directory.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > argument
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > for keeping data under current dir -
> > 
> > Ignite
> > > > > > > binary
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > distribution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > does it, why should embedded scenario
> > 
> > be
> > > > > > > > different?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > In Docker age, packages are becoming
> > > > > 
> > > > > extinct.
> > > > > > > > Nobody
> > > > > > > > > > > > wants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > anymore,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > anyway. I don't see why we should aim
> > 
> > for
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > very good packages today, and nobody
> > 
> > wants
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > contribute
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > towards
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > improvement.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > I also think we should not copy what
> > 
> > other
> > > > > > DBMS
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > ease-of-use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > is usually lacking (this is from
> > 
> > someone who
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mysql
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > pgsql
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > deployments).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> Zhenya Stanilovsky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > 

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