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From Guillaume Nodet <gno...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Karaf first birthday concall minute notes
Date Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:53:48 GMT
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:28, James Strachan <james@fusesource.com> wrote:
> On 17 June 2011 11:16, Christian Schneider <chris@die-schneider.net> wrote:
>> Hi James,
>>
>> first thanks for your explanations.
>>
>> Am 17.06.2011 11:14, schrieb James Strachan:
>>>
>>> On 17 June 2011 09:19, Christian Schneider<chris@die-schneider.net>
>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know that I have proposed this before and then got the answer that this
>>>> was discussed already. Still I have the feeling that everybody dislikes
>>>> the
>>>> current way we build our website.... so again a try :-)...
>>>
>>> I'm not sure you realise how much dislike there is for wikis?
>>>
>> I did not realize but I am starting to see :-) I only saw the
>>>
>>> Wikis don't help committers and don't help users (as you end up with
>>> crap everywhere from different versions - or worse documentation for
>>> stuff thats not even released yet); all just in case we hope one day
>>> someone will turn up and dump a load of useful stuff in the wiki (that
>>> never really happens).
>>
>> That is true help from people outside the project is rare.
>>>
>>> Incidentally I'm even finding the argument that a wiki is the easiest
>>> way to get contributions to have less and less value these days since
>>> github. Its actually easier for a total newbie to come along, fork an
>>> apache project's git repo on github.com, edit some text files&  do a
>>> pull request than it is to pester folks for write access to the wiki
>>> first before they can even begin to contribute anything. The wiki has
>>> a much larger barrier to entry than github.
>>
>> Github would be a great way to improve the documentation workflow for karaf.
>> You would not
>> need to open a jira issue to make a change and apply patch. Sadly we are
>> stuck with subversion.
>
> Sure - the sooner we can ditch subversion at Apache the better.
> However still the easiest way to get new documentation contributions
> today at Apache is to get folks to fork the apache repos at github.
> Then asynchronously do the ICLA stuff; not block on the ICLA first.
>
>
>
>>> Imagine for a second, you are a newbie - you've seen some issue or
>>> have an idea for a little page; with github 2 clicks, 20 seconds later
>>> you're editing the file in question or writing the new file then
>>> firing off the pull request and getting on with your life doing
>>> something else. With a wiki you try editing; doesn't work, so you
>>> shoot off an email for access then wait. Then after a random time
>>> period of hours to days you get more mails then at some point later,
>>> you get the ability to login again to the wiki and hopefully you can
>>> now edit the page. By the time you get access you've probably
>>> forgotten what you were gonna do in the first place :)
>>
>> The process of getting rights for the wiki is a problem of course. But it is
>> necesary as we need the icla to accept contributions.
>> That may also be a big problem with github. You send a pull request but that
>> opens a big problem with IP issues. I think a pull request
>> does not include that the user declares that he has the rights on the code
>> he submits and may donate them to apache. In fact it does not even say he
>> donates the code at all.
>> So for example offering dual licenses later is a problem. I think this is a
>> big issue with github. I am not sure how important this is for documentation
>> though.
>
> We need the ICLA before we can merge into our repo. However thats a
> completely separate issue to the potential new contributor being able
> to actually create their contribution in the first place. The ICLA
> stuff can be done in parallel after their initial contribution and it
> really doesn't matter if it takes weeks to do (which it usually does
> anyway). Apache committers are the only ones who merge the github
> changes to the Apache repos - so there is zero issue of IP here.
>
> Whats important is folks can contribute quickly and easily with
> minimum delay or red tape. We're all busy; if you have to wait 2-3
> weeks before you can add a line of text to a document; you're gonna
> find something else to do quite frankly. Waiting weeks for an ICLA
> does not make it easy for newbies to contribute. With github they can
> make their contributions immediately; folks can immediately see it and
> comment on it. Then in parallel work can commence on getting the ICLA
> in place so the changes can be merged to Apache. Indeed while the ICLA
> is being processed the user can make more contributions. When the ICLA
> is done then a committer can merge in whatever documentation changes
> they've made.

Over the last 5 years, I've rarely seen people contributing a lot to
the doc without being or becoming committers.
I don't want to change a technical decision based on the fact that
people *might* need something, but rather what people actually need.
You are a committer, so you can access / modify the documentation
without any problems.  So what are your real problems with the current
solution ?  We can easily set up nightly uploads or even an hourly
cron job (though given the change rate, i think a nightly one should
be sufficient).   If you need an editor, you always find some software
I think such as
http://www.labnol.org/software/wysiwyg-wiki-editor/18062/ though I
tend to use the "mvn jetty:run" which works quite well as you can see
your changes immediately.

The main problem is that we've been asked by infra to get rid of
confluence, so I certainly don't want to think about getting back to
confluence unless infra retracts.

>
> --
> James
> -------
> FuseSource
> Email: james@fusesource.com
> Web: http://fusesource.com
> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
>
> Open Source Integration and Messaging
>



-- 
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com

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