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From Jean-Baptiste Onofré ...@nanthrax.net>
Subject Re: Fwd: [ANN] hawtio: a new lightweight HTML5 console for Apache Camel, ActiveMQ, JMX, OSGi & Fuse Fabric
Date Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:38:55 GMT
I got your point about non-OSGi and it makes sense.

 From a technical perspective, and regarding that HawtIO is a new 
project, it makes sense for move forward on github.

The point will be present later. For instance, I got remarks from some 
users saying that they would prefer to see Pax* projects as ASF projects 
to insure legal stuff and at least release votes (which is a kind of ASF 
stamp for the project). They are less confident in non Apache project 
because they are not really code review and release vote.
To be honest, I don't think it's a big deal, but some users is looking 
for that.


On 01/25/2013 07:22 PM, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
> As I explained in the camel thread, I think the main benefit and difference
> is that hawtio is not OSGi at all.  It can work in OSGi but is not tied or
> linked to it in anyway.  It means the plugins can be reused for non OSGi
> users, which still represent a big part of the camel and activemq user base.
> The idea would be to avoid having each project needing a different web
> console at the end (and those projects can't really use the Karaf one I
> think).
> For Karaf, we don't really care, but the downstream projects do, and
> aligning on something would help working together on the same code base.
> i don't honestly care about the location of the project itself.  We depends
> on lots of things that are not hosted at the ASF (all the pax stuff for
> example) and that has never been a problem.    And I don't really think
> this console belongs to Karaf at all because it's not OSGi related.   It
> would actually be an adoption problem for hawtio if it would be in Karaf as
> it would be seen as being OSGi, even if it's not.  Besides that, I doubt
> James is willing to move it anywhere else atm.
> For now, given the project is not really mature, I think the best way going
> forward is to start hacking plugins inside that project itself and we'll
> see over time how it evolves.  If there's a need to move each plugin back
> to the original project, it can be done, but today is really not the day to
> think about that imho, that's a minor issue, and as long as people are able
> to hack on plugins, it should be ok.   For this purpose,, github (with
> forks and pull requests) is actually much easier than the ASF.
> If the hawtio project really picks up, then switching to it can be
> considered, but we may want it to mature a bit more before.  Im sure it's
> still missing a lot of features we may need, and I only had a quick look at
> it, but I really like the underlying technology (a static html page, REST
> for accessing the backend, and the whole JMX tree being available through
> REST with jolokia).
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net>wrote:
>> AFAIR (I think that Lukasz and Achim will jump in), once again, it's
>> exactly the purpose of Karaf WebConsole: provide a kind of container for
>> plugins/features extensions.
>> That's my point: identify the overlap/gap between Karaf WebConsole and
>> HawtIO to "communicate" and anticipate the adoption.
>> IMHO, as ActiveMQ, ServiceMix, Karaf, Camel, KarafEE, etc are Apache
>> projects, it would make sense to have the "Console" project at Apache. As a
>> Karaf subproject, we can move forward and see later if it makes sense to
>> promote as a TLP.
>> My $0.02
>> Regards
>> JB
>> On 01/25/2013 06:22 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>>> I have not looked into HawtIO in detail but the idea of having a general
>>> console with plugins for each technology sounds good to me.
>>> I also think it is good to start such a console separately in github as
>>> it allows for fast progress to show it works.
>>> For the long term I think that the generic part of such a console should
>>> move into an apache project. As it makes sense to keep the console
>>> independent of OSGi a separate project may make sense.
>>> So why should we do this in apache? The reason is that currently HawtIO
>>> is just another console. Only at a big community like apache we can hope
>>> for a project to get enough acceptance that a lot of projects participate.
>>> So if we succeed in creating an accepted generic foundation for
>>> management consoles then each of the technology plugins could be
>>> developed in the respective projects.
>>> What do you think about this?
>>> Christian
>>> On 25.01.2013 12:08, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>> FYI, I'm really excited about finally being able to have a unified web
>>>> console for Karaf / ActiveMQ / Camel, especially the fact that the same
>>>> web
>>>> console can be used in a non OSGi-environment, so we can really leverage
>>>> and work together on a single web console.
>>>> I'd encourage everyone to have a look at it and eventually look at what's
>>>> missing from a Karaf point of view so that we can discuss if/how we
>>>> integrate it.
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: James Strachan <james.strachan@gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 10:59 AM
>>>> Subject: [ANN] hawtio: a new lightweight HTML5 console for Apache Camel,
>>>> ActiveMQ, JMX, OSGi & Fuse Fabric
>>>> To: "users@camel.apache.org" <users@camel.apache.org>
>>>> For the impatient just look here :) http://hawt.io/
>>>> Background
>>>> ==========
>>>> We've had numerous consoles all over the place for some time in
>>>> various projects like Felix, Karaf, ActiveMQ, Camel, Tomcat, Fuse
>>>> Fabric to name but a few. Many of them quite heavy weight requiring a
>>>> custom web app to be deployed (which often is quite large); none
>>>> particularly working together.
>>>> We've been working on Fuse Fabric and its management console to
>>>> provide a more consolidated view of a cluster of Apache integration &
>>>> middleware technologies. Increasingly we're seeing our users and
>>>> customers using different combinations of technologies in different
>>>> containers (e.g. Tomcat + ActiveMQ or Karaf + Camel or Fuse Fabric +
>>>> Karaf + ActiveMQ + Camel or whatever).
>>>> So for a few months a few of us have been working on trying to make
>>>> the various web consoles for things like Apache Camel, ActiveMQ,
>>>> Felix/Karaf/OSGi & Fuse Fabric (long with more generic things like JMX
>>>> & OSGi) available as lightweight HTML5 plugins so they can be mixed
>>>> and matched together to suite any container and combination of
>>>> technologies that folks deploy in a JVM.
>>>> hawtio
>>>> =====
>>>> The result so far is hawtio: http://hawt.io/
>>>> You can deploy it as a WAR in any JVM (or feature in karaf) and it
>>>> provides a UI console for whatever it finds in the JVM. So it works
>>>> with Tomcat / Jetty / Karaf / JBoss / Fuse Fabric; and has plugins for
>>>> JMX, OSGi, ActiveMQ, Camel & Fuse Fabric so far with others on the
>>>> way.
>>>> The nice thing is its pretty small (about 1Mb WAR containing all the
>>>> server side code, HTML, JS, images, CSS etc). The only real server
>>>> side component is jolokia which is a small (about 300K) REST connector
>>>> for JMX (which is awesome BTW!) - the rest is static content (which
>>>> could be served from anywhere so doesn't need to be deployed in each
>>>> JVM).
>>>> Its based around a plugin architecture:
>>>> http://hawt.io/developers/**plugins.html<http://hawt.io/developers/plugins.html>
>>>> so its easy to add new plugins for any kind of technology. A plugin is
>>>> pretty much anything that runs in a browser.
>>>> The nice thing is hawtio can discover UI plugins at runtime by
>>>> examining the contents of the JVM or querying REST endpoints; so the
>>>> UI can update in real time as you deploy new things into a JVM!
>>>> hawtio, the hawt camel rider
>>>> ======================
>>>> A quick summary of the current features for camel folks:
>>>> * If you have any camel contexts running in a JVM when hawtio starts
>>>> up it adds an Integration tab which shows all the camel contexts
>>>> running.
>>>> * You can start/stop/suspend/resume the context and its routes; then
>>>> look at all the metrics for routes/endpoints/processors. The Charts
>>>> tab lets you visualise the real time metrics.
>>>> * You can create new endpoints; browse endpoints which are browsable &
>>>> send messages to endpoints (with syntax editing support for JSON / XML
>>>> / YAML / properties)
>>>> * You can visualise all the camel routes or a specific camel route for
>>>> a context in the Diagram tab and see real time metrics of how many
>>>> messages are passing through each step on the diagram. e.g.
>>>> https://raw.github.com/hawtio/**hawtio/master/website/src/**
>>>> images/screenshots/camelRoute.**png<https://raw.github.com/hawtio/hawtio/master/website/src/images/screenshots/camelRoute.png>
>>>> * Clicking on a Route allows you to Trace it; when tracing if you send
>>>> a message into a route then it captures a copy of the message at each
>>>> point through the route. So you can step through (scroll/click through
>>>> the table) a route and see the message contents and how the message
>>>> flows through the EIPs - highlighting where on the diagram each
>>>> message is. This is very handy for figuring out why your route doesn't
>>>> work :) Spot where the heading disappears! Or see why the CBR doesn't
>>>> go where you expected.
>>>> In general most of the runtime features of the open source Fuse IDE
>>>> eclipse tooling are now supported in the camel hawtio plugin; so
>>>> available in a web browser.
>>>> Summary
>>>> =======
>>>> So if you're vaguely interested in web consoles for Apache Camel I
>>>> urge you to give it a try. We love contributions and feedback!
>>>> http://hawt.io/contributing/**index.html<http://hawt.io/contributing/index.html>
>>>> or feel free to raise new issues for how to improve the camel plugin:
>>>> https://github.com/hawtio/**hawtio/issues?labels=camel&**
>>>> page=1&sort=updated&state=open<https://github.com/hawtio/hawtio/issues?labels=camel&page=1&sort=updated&state=open>
>>>> or if you've an itch for a new kind of plugin please dive in! We
>>>> should be able to expose existing web apps/consoles as links inside
>>>> hawtio too BTW.
>>>> Feedback appreciated! Its hawt, but stay cool! ;)
>>>> --
>>>> James
>>>> -------
>>>> Red Hat
>>>> Email: jstracha@redhat.com
>>>> Web: http://fusesource.com
>>>> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
>>>> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
>>>> Open Source Integration
>> --
>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>> jbonofre@apache.org
>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>> Talend - http://www.talend.com

Jean-Baptiste Onofré
Talend - http://www.talend.com

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