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From Christian Müller <christian.muel...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [ANN] hawtio: a new lightweight HTML5 console for Apache Camel, ActiveMQ, JMX, OSGi & Fuse Fabric
Date Sun, 27 Jan 2013 18:25:51 GMT
... and to make it precise. By writing "fighting for it" I mean:
- add missing features to Karaf WebConsole
- provide better documentation (for users and developers)
- make it as easy as possible to install it
-  and whatever you can do to improve Karaf WebConsole.

Best,
Christian

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Christian Müller <
christian.mueller@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Lukasz!
>
> I also do not see any issues with this announcement on the dev@ Camel
> mailing list.
> This announcement is relevant for the Camel users as it offers a awesome
> management user interface for Camel (and other frameworks/technologies).
> Even better, this product is also open source under Apache license 2.0.
> This announcement is NOT spam.
>
> Also the fact that this project is not an Apache project is NOT an issue
> at all. As the others already mentioned, we use multiple
> projects/frameworks which are developed outside the Apache community. What
> would we do if we couldn't use great frameworks/products like Spring,
> Jetty, JUnit, Pax-*, EasyMock, Quartz, ... or Jolokia?
>
> I share Guillaumes opinion that your post sounds angry. But I think there
> is really no reason for. If this product is in competition with an existing
> (Apache) project like Karaf WebConsole, this is a good thing from my point
> of view. Competition creates great products and is powering progress. And
> at the end, *IF* one of the projects will disappear because their user
> basis is getting to small, than because the user decided to use the other -
> better - tool. It's not nice to see dieing a project. It's even harder if
> it's a project you are involved with. But that's life and also has goods.
> But until now, Karaf WebConsole is alive and you can try to convince your
> users that this is the better web console for Karaf and Camel. Go out and
> fight for it!
>
> Have a nice - not so cold - week,
> Christian
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net>wrote:
>
>> Hi Lukasz,
>>
>> I don't see any issue or spam in Guillaume's e-mail: he shared an
>> information with multiple communities, as it considers (and I think he's
>> right) that the information has value and interest for those communities.
>> Apache is not a technical project hosting, it's a set of project
>> communities. Like in all communities, we are here to share ideas and
>> discuss in a fair, smart, and kind way.
>> In Karaf (and other projects), we already discussed and use projects
>> coming from "outside". It's long list: Cellar, EIK, Pax*, jledit, etc.
>> I remember to have send a couple of e-mails to inform Karaf community
>> about new projects that may interest us (Pax-CDI and Pax-JDBC for instance).
>>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>>
>> On 01/25/2013 08:12 PM, Łukasz Dywicki wrote:
>>
>>> Guillaume,
>>> If I'll send a mail with announcement about my amazing project, whatever
>>> it will be, to apache mailing lists I will be treat a spamer. If I will try
>>> doing that with more mailing lists - then I'll be treat as spamer - that's
>>> for sure. And that's what have you done. You have something which relates
>>> to Apache projects but it's not Apache project yet. Apache mailing lists
>>> are not for  announcement about products and projects which are not made
>>> under Apache Foundation. Please honor that.
>>>
>>> That's all in this topic from me and I don't going to discuss about any
>>> other Fuse project any more on Apache mailing lists. If you want donate
>>> hawt.io, that's fine - write incubator proposal (as it doesn't fit
>>> Karaf at all) or take it as part of other community. I don't care.
>>> For example you may wish use ServiceMix for that. You have most of
>>> commiters there. It will fit also SMX5, more over it will let you
>>> resuscitate it after two years of doing nothing.
>>>
>>> I hope I made it clear.
>>> --
>>> Cheers from cold Poland,
>>> Lukasz
>>>
>>> Wiadomość napisana przez Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com> w dniu 25
>>> sty 2013, o godz. 19:22:
>>>
>>>  As I explained in the camel thread, I think the main benefit and
>>>> difference
>>>> is that hawtio is not OSGi at all.  It can work in OSGi but is not tied
>>>> or
>>>> linked to it in anyway.  It means the plugins can be reused for non OSGi
>>>> users, which still represent a big part of the camel and activemq user
>>>> base.
>>>> The idea would be to avoid having each project needing a different web
>>>> console at the end (and those projects can't really use the Karaf one I
>>>> think).
>>>> For Karaf, we don't really care, but the downstream projects do, and
>>>> aligning on something would help working together on the same code base.
>>>>
>>>> i don't honestly care about the location of the project itself.  We
>>>> depends
>>>> on lots of things that are not hosted at the ASF (all the pax stuff for
>>>> example) and that has never been a problem.    And I don't really think
>>>> this console belongs to Karaf at all because it's not OSGi related.   It
>>>> would actually be an adoption problem for hawtio if it would be in
>>>> Karaf as
>>>> it would be seen as being OSGi, even if it's not.  Besides that, I doubt
>>>> James is willing to move it anywhere else atm.
>>>>
>>>> For now, given the project is not really mature, I think the best way
>>>> going
>>>> forward is to start hacking plugins inside that project itself and we'll
>>>> see over time how it evolves.  If there's a need to move each plugin
>>>> back
>>>> to the original project, it can be done, but today is really not the
>>>> day to
>>>> think about that imho, that's a minor issue, and as long as people are
>>>> able
>>>> to hack on plugins, it should be ok.   For this purpose,, github (with
>>>> forks and pull requests) is actually much easier than the ASF.
>>>>
>>>> If the hawtio project really picks up, then switching to it can be
>>>> considered, but we may want it to mature a bit more before.  Im sure
>>>> it's
>>>> still missing a lot of features we may need, and I only had a quick
>>>> look at
>>>> it, but I really like the underlying technology (a static html page,
>>>> REST
>>>> for accessing the backend, and the whole JMX tree being available
>>>> through
>>>> REST with jolokia).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net
>>>> >wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  AFAIR (I think that Lukasz and Achim will jump in), once again, it's
>>>>> exactly the purpose of Karaf WebConsole: provide a kind of container
>>>>> for
>>>>> plugins/features extensions.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's my point: identify the overlap/gap between Karaf WebConsole and
>>>>> HawtIO to "communicate" and anticipate the adoption.
>>>>> IMHO, as ActiveMQ, ServiceMix, Karaf, Camel, KarafEE, etc are Apache
>>>>> projects, it would make sense to have the "Console" project at Apache.
>>>>> As a
>>>>> Karaf subproject, we can move forward and see later if it makes sense
>>>>> to
>>>>> promote as a TLP.
>>>>>
>>>>> My $0.02
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> JB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 01/25/2013 06:22 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  I have not looked into HawtIO in detail but the idea of having a
>>>>>> general
>>>>>> console with plugins for each technology sounds good to me.
>>>>>> I also think it is good to start such a console separately in github
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> it allows for fast progress to show it works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the long term I think that the generic part of such a console
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> move into an apache project. As it makes sense to keep the console
>>>>>> independent of OSGi a separate project may make sense.
>>>>>> So why should we do this in apache? The reason is that currently
>>>>>> HawtIO
>>>>>> is just another console. Only at a big community like apache we can
>>>>>> hope
>>>>>> for a project to get enough acceptance that a lot of projects
>>>>>> participate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So if we succeed in creating an accepted generic foundation for
>>>>>> management consoles then each of the technology plugins could be
>>>>>> developed in the respective projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think about this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25.01.2013 12:08, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  FYI, I'm really excited about finally being able to have a unified
>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>> console for Karaf / ActiveMQ / Camel, especially the fact that
the
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>> console can be used in a non OSGi-environment, so we can really
>>>>>>> leverage
>>>>>>> and work together on a single web console.
>>>>>>> I'd encourage everyone to have a look at it and eventually look
at
>>>>>>> what's
>>>>>>> missing from a Karaf point of view so that we can discuss if/how
we
>>>>>>> integrate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>> From: James Strachan <james.strachan@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 10:59 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [ANN] hawtio: a new lightweight HTML5 console for Apache
>>>>>>> Camel,
>>>>>>> ActiveMQ, JMX, OSGi & Fuse Fabric
>>>>>>> To: "users@camel.apache.org" <users@camel.apache.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the impatient just look here :) http://hawt.io/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Background
>>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>>> We've had numerous consoles all over the place for some time
in
>>>>>>> various projects like Felix, Karaf, ActiveMQ, Camel, Tomcat,
Fuse
>>>>>>> Fabric to name but a few. Many of them quite heavy weight requiring
a
>>>>>>> custom web app to be deployed (which often is quite large); none
>>>>>>> particularly working together.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've been working on Fuse Fabric and its management console
to
>>>>>>> provide a more consolidated view of a cluster of Apache integration
&
>>>>>>> middleware technologies. Increasingly we're seeing our users
and
>>>>>>> customers using different combinations of technologies in different
>>>>>>> containers (e.g. Tomcat + ActiveMQ or Karaf + Camel or Fuse Fabric
+
>>>>>>> Karaf + ActiveMQ + Camel or whatever).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So for a few months a few of us have been working on trying to
make
>>>>>>> the various web consoles for things like Apache Camel, ActiveMQ,
>>>>>>> Felix/Karaf/OSGi & Fuse Fabric (long with more generic things
like
>>>>>>> JMX
>>>>>>> & OSGi) available as lightweight HTML5 plugins so they can
be mixed
>>>>>>> and matched together to suite any container and combination of
>>>>>>> technologies that folks deploy in a JVM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hawtio
>>>>>>> =====
>>>>>>> The result so far is hawtio: http://hawt.io/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can deploy it as a WAR in any JVM (or feature in karaf) and
it
>>>>>>> provides a UI console for whatever it finds in the JVM. So it
works
>>>>>>> with Tomcat / Jetty / Karaf / JBoss / Fuse Fabric; and has plugins
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> JMX, OSGi, ActiveMQ, Camel & Fuse Fabric so far with others
on the
>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The nice thing is its pretty small (about 1Mb WAR containing
all the
>>>>>>> server side code, HTML, JS, images, CSS etc). The only real server
>>>>>>> side component is jolokia which is a small (about 300K) REST
>>>>>>> connector
>>>>>>> for JMX (which is awesome BTW!) - the rest is static content
(which
>>>>>>> could be served from anywhere so doesn't need to be deployed
in each
>>>>>>> JVM).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its based around a plugin architecture:
>>>>>>> http://hawt.io/developers/****plugins.html<http://hawt.io/developers/**plugins.html>
>>>>>>> <http://hawt.io/**developers/plugins.html<http://hawt.io/developers/plugins.html>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> so its easy to add new plugins for any kind of technology. A
plugin
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> pretty much anything that runs in a browser.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The nice thing is hawtio can discover UI plugins at runtime by
>>>>>>> examining the contents of the JVM or querying REST endpoints;
so the
>>>>>>> UI can update in real time as you deploy new things into a JVM!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hawtio, the hawt camel rider
>>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>>> A quick summary of the current features for camel folks:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * If you have any camel contexts running in a JVM when hawtio
starts
>>>>>>> up it adds an Integration tab which shows all the camel contexts
>>>>>>> running.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * You can start/stop/suspend/resume the context and its routes;
then
>>>>>>> look at all the metrics for routes/endpoints/processors. The
Charts
>>>>>>> tab lets you visualise the real time metrics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * You can create new endpoints; browse endpoints which are browsable
>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>> send messages to endpoints (with syntax editing support for JSON
/
>>>>>>> XML
>>>>>>> / YAML / properties)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * You can visualise all the camel routes or a specific camel
route
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> a context in the Diagram tab and see real time metrics of how
many
>>>>>>> messages are passing through each step on the diagram. e.g.
>>>>>>> https://raw.github.com/hawtio/****hawtio/master/website/src/**<https://raw.github.com/hawtio/**hawtio/master/website/src/**>
>>>>>>> images/screenshots/camelRoute.****png<https://raw.github.com/**
>>>>>>> hawtio/hawtio/master/website/**src/images/screenshots/**
>>>>>>> camelRoute.png<https://raw.github.com/hawtio/hawtio/master/website/src/images/screenshots/camelRoute.png>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Clicking on a Route allows you to Trace it; when tracing if
you
>>>>>>> send
>>>>>>> a message into a route then it captures a copy of the message
at each
>>>>>>> point through the route. So you can step through (scroll/click
>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>> the table) a route and see the message contents and how the message
>>>>>>> flows through the EIPs - highlighting where on the diagram each
>>>>>>> message is. This is very handy for figuring out why your route
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> work :) Spot where the heading disappears! Or see why the CBR
doesn't
>>>>>>> go where you expected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general most of the runtime features of the open source Fuse
IDE
>>>>>>> eclipse tooling are now supported in the camel hawtio plugin;
so
>>>>>>> available in a web browser.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Summary
>>>>>>> =======
>>>>>>> So if you're vaguely interested in web consoles for Apache Camel
I
>>>>>>> urge you to give it a try. We love contributions and feedback!
>>>>>>> http://hawt.io/contributing/****index.html<http://hawt.io/contributing/**index.html>
>>>>>>> <http://hawt.io/**contributing/index.html<http://hawt.io/contributing/index.html>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or feel free to raise new issues for how to improve the camel
plugin:
>>>>>>> https://github.com/hawtio/****hawtio/issues?labels=camel&**<https://github.com/hawtio/**hawtio/issues?labels=camel&**>
>>>>>>> page=1&sort=updated&state=**open<https://github.com/**
>>>>>>> hawtio/hawtio/issues?labels=**camel&page=1&sort=updated&**state=open<https://github.com/hawtio/hawtio/issues?labels=camel&page=1&sort=updated&state=open>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or if you've an itch for a new kind of plugin please dive in!
We
>>>>>>> should be able to expose existing web apps/consoles as links
inside
>>>>>>> hawtio too BTW.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feedback appreciated! Its hawt, but stay cool! ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>> -------
>>>>>>> Red Hat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email: jstracha@redhat.com
>>>>>>> Web: http://fusesource.com
>>>>>>> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
>>>>>>> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Open Source Integration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>>>>> jbonofre@apache.org
>>>>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>>>>> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Red Hat, Open Source Integration
>>>>
>>>> Email: gnodet@redhat.com
>>>> Web: http://fusesource.com
>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>> jbonofre@apache.org
>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>


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