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From Christian Müller <christian.muel...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [ANN] hawtio: a new lightweight HTML5 console for Apache Camel, ActiveMQ, JMX, OSGi & Fuse Fabric
Date Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:55:02 GMT
Hi Lukasz!

I also do not see any issues with this announcement on the dev@ Camel
mailing list.
This announcement is relevant for the Camel users as it offers a awesome
management user interface for Camel (and other frameworks/technologies).
Even better, this product is also open source under Apache license 2.0.
This announcement is NOT spam.

Also the fact that this project is not an Apache project is NOT an issue at
all. As the others already mentioned, we use multiple projects/frameworks
which are developed outside the Apache community. What would we do if we
couldn't use great frameworks/products like Spring, Jetty, JUnit, Pax-*,
EasyMock, Quartz, ... or Jolokia?

I share Guillaumes opinion that your post sounds angry. But I think there
is really no reason for. If this product is in competition with an existing
(Apache) project like Karaf WebConsole, this is a good thing from my point
of view. Competition creates great products and is powering progress. And
at the end, *IF* one of the projects will disappear because their user
basis is getting to small, than because the user decided to use the other -
better - tool. It's not nice to see dieing a project. It's even harder if
it's a project you are involved with. But that's life and also has goods.
But until now, Karaf WebConsole is alive and you can try to convince your
users that this is the better web console for Karaf and Camel. Go out and
fight for it!

Have a nice - not so cold - week,

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net>wrote:

> Hi Lukasz,
> I don't see any issue or spam in Guillaume's e-mail: he shared an
> information with multiple communities, as it considers (and I think he's
> right) that the information has value and interest for those communities.
> Apache is not a technical project hosting, it's a set of project
> communities. Like in all communities, we are here to share ideas and
> discuss in a fair, smart, and kind way.
> In Karaf (and other projects), we already discussed and use projects
> coming from "outside". It's long list: Cellar, EIK, Pax*, jledit, etc.
> I remember to have send a couple of e-mails to inform Karaf community
> about new projects that may interest us (Pax-CDI and Pax-JDBC for instance).
> Regards
> JB
> On 01/25/2013 08:12 PM, Łukasz Dywicki wrote:
>> Guillaume,
>> If I'll send a mail with announcement about my amazing project, whatever
>> it will be, to apache mailing lists I will be treat a spamer. If I will try
>> doing that with more mailing lists - then I'll be treat as spamer - that's
>> for sure. And that's what have you done. You have something which relates
>> to Apache projects but it's not Apache project yet. Apache mailing lists
>> are not for  announcement about products and projects which are not made
>> under Apache Foundation. Please honor that.
>> That's all in this topic from me and I don't going to discuss about any
>> other Fuse project any more on Apache mailing lists. If you want donate
>> hawt.io, that's fine - write incubator proposal (as it doesn't fit Karaf
>> at all) or take it as part of other community. I don't care.
>> For example you may wish use ServiceMix for that. You have most of
>> commiters there. It will fit also SMX5, more over it will let you
>> resuscitate it after two years of doing nothing.
>> I hope I made it clear.
>> --
>> Cheers from cold Poland,
>> Lukasz
>> Wiadomość napisana przez Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com> w dniu 25
>> sty 2013, o godz. 19:22:
>>  As I explained in the camel thread, I think the main benefit and
>>> difference
>>> is that hawtio is not OSGi at all.  It can work in OSGi but is not tied
>>> or
>>> linked to it in anyway.  It means the plugins can be reused for non OSGi
>>> users, which still represent a big part of the camel and activemq user
>>> base.
>>> The idea would be to avoid having each project needing a different web
>>> console at the end (and those projects can't really use the Karaf one I
>>> think).
>>> For Karaf, we don't really care, but the downstream projects do, and
>>> aligning on something would help working together on the same code base.
>>> i don't honestly care about the location of the project itself.  We
>>> depends
>>> on lots of things that are not hosted at the ASF (all the pax stuff for
>>> example) and that has never been a problem.    And I don't really think
>>> this console belongs to Karaf at all because it's not OSGi related.   It
>>> would actually be an adoption problem for hawtio if it would be in Karaf
>>> as
>>> it would be seen as being OSGi, even if it's not.  Besides that, I doubt
>>> James is willing to move it anywhere else atm.
>>> For now, given the project is not really mature, I think the best way
>>> going
>>> forward is to start hacking plugins inside that project itself and we'll
>>> see over time how it evolves.  If there's a need to move each plugin back
>>> to the original project, it can be done, but today is really not the day
>>> to
>>> think about that imho, that's a minor issue, and as long as people are
>>> able
>>> to hack on plugins, it should be ok.   For this purpose,, github (with
>>> forks and pull requests) is actually much easier than the ASF.
>>> If the hawtio project really picks up, then switching to it can be
>>> considered, but we may want it to mature a bit more before.  Im sure it's
>>> still missing a lot of features we may need, and I only had a quick look
>>> at
>>> it, but I really like the underlying technology (a static html page, REST
>>> for accessing the backend, and the whole JMX tree being available through
>>> REST with jolokia).
>>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net
>>> >wrote:
>>>  AFAIR (I think that Lukasz and Achim will jump in), once again, it's
>>>> exactly the purpose of Karaf WebConsole: provide a kind of container for
>>>> plugins/features extensions.
>>>> That's my point: identify the overlap/gap between Karaf WebConsole and
>>>> HawtIO to "communicate" and anticipate the adoption.
>>>> IMHO, as ActiveMQ, ServiceMix, Karaf, Camel, KarafEE, etc are Apache
>>>> projects, it would make sense to have the "Console" project at Apache.
>>>> As a
>>>> Karaf subproject, we can move forward and see later if it makes sense to
>>>> promote as a TLP.
>>>> My $0.02
>>>> Regards
>>>> JB
>>>> On 01/25/2013 06:22 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>>>>  I have not looked into HawtIO in detail but the idea of having a
>>>>> general
>>>>> console with plugins for each technology sounds good to me.
>>>>> I also think it is good to start such a console separately in github
>>>>> it allows for fast progress to show it works.
>>>>> For the long term I think that the generic part of such a console
>>>>> should
>>>>> move into an apache project. As it makes sense to keep the console
>>>>> independent of OSGi a separate project may make sense.
>>>>> So why should we do this in apache? The reason is that currently HawtIO
>>>>> is just another console. Only at a big community like apache we can
>>>>> hope
>>>>> for a project to get enough acceptance that a lot of projects
>>>>> participate.
>>>>> So if we succeed in creating an accepted generic foundation for
>>>>> management consoles then each of the technology plugins could be
>>>>> developed in the respective projects.
>>>>> What do you think about this?
>>>>> Christian
>>>>> On 25.01.2013 12:08, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>>  FYI, I'm really excited about finally being able to have a unified web
>>>>>> console for Karaf / ActiveMQ / Camel, especially the fact that the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> web
>>>>>> console can be used in a non OSGi-environment, so we can really
>>>>>> leverage
>>>>>> and work together on a single web console.
>>>>>> I'd encourage everyone to have a look at it and eventually look at
>>>>>> what's
>>>>>> missing from a Karaf point of view so that we can discuss if/how
>>>>>> integrate it.
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: James Strachan <james.strachan@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 10:59 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [ANN] hawtio: a new lightweight HTML5 console for Apache
>>>>>> Camel,
>>>>>> ActiveMQ, JMX, OSGi & Fuse Fabric
>>>>>> To: "users@camel.apache.org" <users@camel.apache.org>
>>>>>> For the impatient just look here :) http://hawt.io/
>>>>>> Background
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>> We've had numerous consoles all over the place for some time in
>>>>>> various projects like Felix, Karaf, ActiveMQ, Camel, Tomcat, Fuse
>>>>>> Fabric to name but a few. Many of them quite heavy weight requiring
>>>>>> custom web app to be deployed (which often is quite large); none
>>>>>> particularly working together.
>>>>>> We've been working on Fuse Fabric and its management console to
>>>>>> provide a more consolidated view of a cluster of Apache integration
>>>>>> middleware technologies. Increasingly we're seeing our users and
>>>>>> customers using different combinations of technologies in different
>>>>>> containers (e.g. Tomcat + ActiveMQ or Karaf + Camel or Fuse Fabric
>>>>>> Karaf + ActiveMQ + Camel or whatever).
>>>>>> So for a few months a few of us have been working on trying to make
>>>>>> the various web consoles for things like Apache Camel, ActiveMQ,
>>>>>> Felix/Karaf/OSGi & Fuse Fabric (long with more generic things
like JMX
>>>>>> & OSGi) available as lightweight HTML5 plugins so they can be
>>>>>> and matched together to suite any container and combination of
>>>>>> technologies that folks deploy in a JVM.
>>>>>> hawtio
>>>>>> =====
>>>>>> The result so far is hawtio: http://hawt.io/
>>>>>> You can deploy it as a WAR in any JVM (or feature in karaf) and it
>>>>>> provides a UI console for whatever it finds in the JVM. So it works
>>>>>> with Tomcat / Jetty / Karaf / JBoss / Fuse Fabric; and has plugins
>>>>>> JMX, OSGi, ActiveMQ, Camel & Fuse Fabric so far with others on
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>> The nice thing is its pretty small (about 1Mb WAR containing all
>>>>>> server side code, HTML, JS, images, CSS etc). The only real server
>>>>>> side component is jolokia which is a small (about 300K) REST connector
>>>>>> for JMX (which is awesome BTW!) - the rest is static content (which
>>>>>> could be served from anywhere so doesn't need to be deployed in each
>>>>>> JVM).
>>>>>> Its based around a plugin architecture:
>>>>>> http://hawt.io/developers/****plugins.html<http://hawt.io/developers/**plugins.html>
>>>>>> <http://hawt.io/**developers/plugins.html<http://hawt.io/developers/plugins.html>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> so its easy to add new plugins for any kind of technology. A plugin
>>>>>> pretty much anything that runs in a browser.
>>>>>> The nice thing is hawtio can discover UI plugins at runtime by
>>>>>> examining the contents of the JVM or querying REST endpoints; so
>>>>>> UI can update in real time as you deploy new things into a JVM!
>>>>>> hawtio, the hawt camel rider
>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>> A quick summary of the current features for camel folks:
>>>>>> * If you have any camel contexts running in a JVM when hawtio starts
>>>>>> up it adds an Integration tab which shows all the camel contexts
>>>>>> running.
>>>>>> * You can start/stop/suspend/resume the context and its routes; then
>>>>>> look at all the metrics for routes/endpoints/processors. The Charts
>>>>>> tab lets you visualise the real time metrics.
>>>>>> * You can create new endpoints; browse endpoints which are browsable
>>>>>> send messages to endpoints (with syntax editing support for JSON
>>>>>> / YAML / properties)
>>>>>> * You can visualise all the camel routes or a specific camel route
>>>>>> a context in the Diagram tab and see real time metrics of how many
>>>>>> messages are passing through each step on the diagram. e.g.
>>>>>> https://raw.github.com/hawtio/****hawtio/master/website/src/**<https://raw.github.com/hawtio/**hawtio/master/website/src/**>
>>>>>> images/screenshots/camelRoute.****png<https://raw.github.com/**
>>>>>> hawtio/hawtio/master/website/**src/images/screenshots/**
>>>>>> camelRoute.png<https://raw.github.com/hawtio/hawtio/master/website/src/images/screenshots/camelRoute.png>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> * Clicking on a Route allows you to Trace it; when tracing if you
>>>>>> a message into a route then it captures a copy of the message at
>>>>>> point through the route. So you can step through (scroll/click through
>>>>>> the table) a route and see the message contents and how the message
>>>>>> flows through the EIPs - highlighting where on the diagram each
>>>>>> message is. This is very handy for figuring out why your route doesn't
>>>>>> work :) Spot where the heading disappears! Or see why the CBR doesn't
>>>>>> go where you expected.
>>>>>> In general most of the runtime features of the open source Fuse IDE
>>>>>> eclipse tooling are now supported in the camel hawtio plugin; so
>>>>>> available in a web browser.
>>>>>> Summary
>>>>>> =======
>>>>>> So if you're vaguely interested in web consoles for Apache Camel
>>>>>> urge you to give it a try. We love contributions and feedback!
>>>>>> http://hawt.io/contributing/****index.html<http://hawt.io/contributing/**index.html>
>>>>>> <http://hawt.io/**contributing/index.html<http://hawt.io/contributing/index.html>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> or feel free to raise new issues for how to improve the camel plugin:
>>>>>> https://github.com/hawtio/****hawtio/issues?labels=camel&**<https://github.com/hawtio/**hawtio/issues?labels=camel&**>
>>>>>> page=1&sort=updated&state=**open<https://github.com/**
>>>>>> hawtio/hawtio/issues?labels=**camel&page=1&sort=updated&**state=open<https://github.com/hawtio/hawtio/issues?labels=camel&page=1&sort=updated&state=open>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> or if you've an itch for a new kind of plugin please dive in! We
>>>>>> should be able to expose existing web apps/consoles as links inside
>>>>>> hawtio too BTW.
>>>>>> Feedback appreciated! Its hawt, but stay cool! ;)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> James
>>>>>> -------
>>>>>> Red Hat
>>>>>> Email: jstracha@redhat.com
>>>>>> Web: http://fusesource.com
>>>>>> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
>>>>>> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
>>>>>> Open Source Integration
>>>>>  --
>>>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>>>> jbonofre@apache.org
>>>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>>>> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>>> --
>>> ------------------------
>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>> ------------------------
>>> Red Hat, Open Source Integration
>>> Email: gnodet@redhat.com
>>> Web: http://fusesource.com
>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> jbonofre@apache.org
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://www.talend.com


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