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From Francois Papon <francois.pa...@openobject.fr>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Launching the kloud initiative
Date Wed, 13 Feb 2019 10:46:29 GMT
Hi,

Yes, I'm agree about the "polymorphic" approach, this is really a big
advantage compare to others framework!

Users can using Karaf as dynamic runtime or with Winegrower for the
static approach, according to their environment (on-premise, cloud....).

We have all the features to make the new Karaf awesome :)

François Papon
fpapon@apache.org

Le 13/02/2019 à 12:06, Jean-Baptiste Onofré a écrit :
> Good point Serge.
>
> The huge advantage of Karaf is our "polymorphic" approach: we can
> address lot of different packaging, use cases, etc.
>
> So, update is a key thing as well (more for dynamic approach than static
> I think).
>
> I forgot to mention one area where we would need help: spread the word
> and advertising. With the kloud initiative, I think we can seduce more
> users, but they have to find Karaf and what they can do with it and how
> Karaf can help them.
>
> I created new Jira yesterday evening, and now I'm starting from PoC that
> you will be able to see as PRs soon.
>
> Thanks for your enthusiasm and your interest in Karaf !
>
> Let's build the "new" Karaf ;)
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> On 13/02/2019 08:29, Serge Huber wrote:
>> +1
>>
>> I really like this project, but I think we should also be careful to
>> really leverage Karaf's strengths compared to other frameworks (such
>> as Spring or others).
>>
>> I have a millions things that come to mind, how to address :
>> - upgrades
>> - rolling upgrades
>> - leveraging Karaf to avoid building lots of containers and use
>> instead OSGi to reduce the memory / CPU footprint
>> - configuration of containers (passed as env or even centralized ?)
>>
>> There are also some very interesting developments coming to the JDK
>> (in JDK 12) such as Project Loom that could help scale Karaf to
>> millions of network connections on single instances without the need
>> for NIO.
>>
>> We were talking in another thread about having a very thin OS-layer on
>> top of Karaf to have baremetal performance and I think this could be
>> very interesting in a cloud setup as well.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm just throwing ideas here, hope you don't mind :)
>>
>> cheers,
>>   Serge
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 2:11 PM David Daniel
>> <david.daniel.1979@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thank you,
>>>   I would also be curious if it is possible to work to align some features
>>> changes to be compatible with the osgi feature spec.
>>> https://github.com/osgi/design/blob/master/rfps/rfp-0188-Features.pdf  It
>>> might be possible to bridge some of the gap between bnd and karaf.  I love
>>> things about both frameworks and would be super excited if they could work
>>> together.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 7:01 AM Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your feedback David, nice idea about jlink, I have to
>>>> investigate a little about it, but definitely interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> JB
>>>>
>>>> On 11/02/2019 12:52, David Daniel wrote:
>>>>> I really like the idea of the static build and features in code.  I think
>>>>> the jdk is making great strides in getting java running well on docker
>>>>> java 9 jlink for small images that can be copied and spun up quickly
>>>>> java 10 defaults improvements https://aboullaite.me/docker-java-10/
>>>>> portola for running java on musl (alpine without glibc)
>>>>> https://openjdk.java.net/projects/portola/
>>>>> loom is coming for not spinning off a ton of threads
>>>>> If at all possible I would love to be able to build a minimal karaf
>>>>> distribution with jlink from java module files that were generated from
>>>> the
>>>>> karaf resolver.  I think this might be a little much though and don't
>>>> even
>>>>> know if it is possible.  Just something that might be able to be looked
>>>> at
>>>>> while the code is being written.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 1:57 AM Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As we now have released Karaf runtime 4.2.3 and started 4.3.x, I
think
>>>>>> it's time to discuss and move forward "concretely" about the "kloud"
>>>>>> (Karaf for the Cloud) initiative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the first approach is focused on the developers and devops.
I
>>>>>> created the following Jira:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-5923
>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-6148
>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-6149
>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-6150
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea is really to simplify the features generation and distribution
>>>>>> packaging.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the features generation, I'm thinking on annotations directly
in the
>>>>>> code (in package-info.java for instance) describing the features
needed
>>>>>> by the application. The annotations scanner could then create the
>>>>>> features XML using the code itself and the annotations. That would
allow
>>>>>> us to not relay on Maven and be able to support CLI/Gradle/Maven.
In the
>>>>>> case where the user uses Maven, we could better leverage Maven to
get
>>>>>> some details. The idea is to especially easily create features XML
to
>>>>>> build "static" runtime (that make sense for the cloud).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After the features XML generation, we should have a easier way to
build
>>>>>> a distribution. We also have to provide multiple "packaging output"
like
>>>>>> archives (zip/tar.gz), uber jar (embedding karaf and user application),
>>>>>> docker image, openimage, kubernetes meta, ...
>>>>>> The idea is to have a ready to go packaging for the cloud.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the cloud perspective, the distribution should be
>>>>>> "immutable/static". Currently, the resolver we have is great for
>>>>>> "dynamic" deployment but could be painful for static one (dealing
with
>>>>>> refresh, multiple versions resolution, etc).
>>>>>> I'm proposing to create kind of "static" resolver
>>>>>> (https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-6147) directly taking
boot
>>>>>> features and installing straight forward what's defined in the features.
>>>>>> It should result with a more "predictable" behavior, really helpful
from
>>>>>> a cloud perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I created some Jira about general improvements for the cloud
>>>>>> and docker:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-6111
>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-4609
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you got the overall idea: dramatically simplify creation
of
>>>>>> distribution packaging karaf with user application (for developer),
>>>>>> simplify the packaging outputs and bootstrapping on cloud (for devops).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think it could be helpful to have a doc on confluence about
that,
>>>>>> please let me know I will create it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We all know that Karaf is an amazing runtime. To convince more and
more
>>>>>> users and give a new dimension to Karaf, I really think that the
"kloud
>>>>>> initiative" is a must have. We will have a runtime that can address
both
>>>>>> static and dynamic bootstrapping approach, one runtime for multiple
>>>>>> services or one runtime per service, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> JB
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>>>>>> jbonofre@apache.org
>>>>>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>>>>>> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>>>> jbonofre@apache.org
>>>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>>>> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>>>>

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