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From Ceki Gülcü <c...@qos.ch>
Subject Re: Avalon Logging Toolkit
Date Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:28:30 GMT

At 14:54 03.02.2002 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
>Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>> It is indeed a straight rip-off from log4j. What is most disturbing is
>> that this is happening within the boundaries of the foundation.  Some
>> people will condone such acts plagiarism in any way they can. It is
>> easier to ignore plagiarism than actually to deal with it.
>Plagiarism is a strong word.  I'm not even sure what it means in an open
>source context.

Plagiarism is indeed a strong word. In an open source context it means
that you don't go and copy other people's work to the last word.  I
would not be as bothered by this "replication" if it was done outside
the framework of Jakarta.  From Peter's own admission, LogKit will
eventually die away. As such, I don't view LogKit as a threat to
log4j, that is not what is bothering me.

What kind of person would simply take existent open source code and
reimplement with very little variation?  Given little time, we can all
do this.  It is actually very easy to do, especially given that the licenses
are identical. That is what is bothering me.

>In any case, an oversimplication of the history as I understand it: Avalon
>is based on design principles such as inversion of control.  Those
>requirements were conveyed here, and found to be impossible to implement
>without affecting backwards compatibiltity.  While this is certainly a
>valid consideration, it did not make the requirements go away.

Do you actually believe that?

When things sour, any version of events is an over simplification.
Your paragraph above is no exception.

>Add in a dash of personallity conflict (example: people who are prone to
>throw around terms like "plagiarism").  And add in the fact that what
>became logkit was actually a part of an apache codebase before log4j ever
>was, and you get the current state.

LogKit was part of apache before log4j. Fine. Is that good enough a 
reason to shamelessly copy log4j?

Regarding personality, I think am rather cool headed except that I have 
low tolerance for Plagiarism.

>While I'm not exactly thrilled with duplication, I certainly prefer it over
>blocking other people's work.

I am not asking you to block other people's work. I am asking you not
to *condone* plagiarism.  If we don't respect each others work even
within Jakarta, how can we expect the project to get anywhere?
Imposing coding standards is one thing, a modicum of decency is

Ceki Gülcü

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