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From "Paulo Gaspar" <paulo.gas...@krankikom.de>
Subject RE: Avalon Logging Toolkit
Date Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:14:51 GMT
IMO Ceki and Peter are USUALLY smart people that seem to get completely
DUMB when it comes to talking about each other.

And Ceki even stops making sense when talking about LogKit, since I see
signs of cross pollination in BOTH directions. Peter at least admits at
what he learned from Log4J and what he got from there.

The "plagiarism" talk is just PLAIN STUPID. I agree with Sam on that
(although Sam was a bit more polite).

This is NOT art - reinventing the wheel just to be original is plain
stupid and a waste of energy.

Forking code because the original does not suite all your needs MAKES
ALL THE SENSE - reinventing it not.

This is Open Source. Look at the Apache License! Why can an outsider
fork the code and an insider should not???

Ceki, if you are missing that the LogKit people give you credit in the
source and documentation, that can make sense to me. But talking about
plagiarism is just BIG BS!

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:ceki@qos.ch]
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:29 PM
> To: Log4J Developers List
> Cc: pmc@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Avalon Logging Toolkit
> At 14:54 03.02.2002 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> >Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> >>
> >> It is indeed a straight rip-off from log4j. What is most disturbing is
> >> that this is happening within the boundaries of the foundation.  Some
> >> people will condone such acts plagiarism in any way they can. It is
> >> easier to ignore plagiarism than actually to deal with it.
> >
> >Plagiarism is a strong word.  I'm not even sure what it means in an open
> >source context.
> Plagiarism is indeed a strong word. In an open source context it means
> that you don't go and copy other people's work to the last word.  I
> would not be as bothered by this "replication" if it was done outside
> the framework of Jakarta.  From Peter's own admission, LogKit will
> eventually die away. As such, I don't view LogKit as a threat to
> log4j, that is not what is bothering me.
> What kind of person would simply take existent open source code and
> reimplement with very little variation?  Given little time, we can all
> do this.  It is actually very easy to do, especially given that
> the licenses
> are identical. That is what is bothering me.
> >In any case, an oversimplication of the history as I understand
> it: Avalon
> >is based on design principles such as inversion of control.  Those
> >requirements were conveyed here, and found to be impossible to implement
> >without affecting backwards compatibiltity.  While this is certainly a
> >valid consideration, it did not make the requirements go away.
> Do you actually believe that?
> When things sour, any version of events is an over simplification.
> Your paragraph above is no exception.
> >Add in a dash of personallity conflict (example: people who are prone to
> >throw around terms like "plagiarism").  And add in the fact that what
> >became logkit was actually a part of an apache codebase before log4j ever
> >was, and you get the current state.
> LogKit was part of apache before log4j. Fine. Is that good enough a
> reason to shamelessly copy log4j?
> Regarding personality, I think am rather cool headed except that I have
> low tolerance for Plagiarism.
> >While I'm not exactly thrilled with duplication, I certainly
> prefer it over
> >blocking other people's work.
> I am not asking you to block other people's work. I am asking you not
> to *condone* plagiarism.  If we don't respect each others work even
> within Jakarta, how can we expect the project to get anywhere?
> Imposing coding standards is one thing, a modicum of decency is
> another.
> --
> Ceki Gülcü
> --
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