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From Ceki Gülcü <nore...@qos.ch>
Subject Re: maintaining the Frequently Asked Questions
Date Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:30:04 GMT
At 05:03 PM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
>A wiki needs to be easily editable, or it isn't a wiki.
>
>The entire site is immutable, and clicking on the edit button says
>"You are not allowed to edit this page."  No reason why, no suggestion
>on how that might be changed, no nothing -- just that I'm not allowed
>to edit it.

You have to be logged in to edit the pages. Otherwise, the page is marked 
as immutable. It seems that *all* Apache wiki pages exhibit this behavior.

>People can hardly be faulted for not maintaining something that they
>can't maintain.

Correct.

>And since those in charge of the wiki's content
>obviously want it frozen, what's the point in complaining about it?

That is not a correct characterization because the pages become editable as 
soon as you log in as anybody. You don't need special privs to edit the pages.

>The appearance is that those in charge WANT it to say that "Andreav is
>a fast and flexible framework" because they're the only ones that can
>(at least at this time) make that kind of edit.  (Or people just
>didn't notice that it said "Andreav"... I had to read the page a
>couple of times before my brain didn't automatically substitute
>"log4j" there.)

>Having A volunteer maintain it goes against the point of a wiki.  The
>point is that the community maintains it.  Right now that's not
>happening because it's not easy to do.
>
>It may be that it's a problem with bad user-interface design -- maybe
>you CAN edit pages, but you need to log in first.  But there's no link
>that says "login" or "registration", and the error message doesn't say
>that it's even necessary.  It's hardly surprising that the designers
>of MoinMoin would overlook that since having to jump through hoops to
>edit a wiki largely violates the spirit, but it's still an issue.

I agree. The requirement to have people identify themselves is not more 
secure, and it's certainly more cumbersome. Indeed, nothing prevents people 
from registering as Mickey Mouse.

>"You can submit a patch against..."
>
>To maintain product source code, having a fairly high barrier of entry
>is fine.  But the FAQ??  If someone wants to contribute a question and
>answer for the FAQ they should:
>   * Figure out that to do so they need to use the same process as
>patching source code
>   * Figure out how to login and check out the source code for the
>entire project on their machine
>     - First installing cvs if they're on a OS that doesn't already
>have it (eg, Windows)
>   * Figure out where the file is
>   * Learn the syntax of the XML that the FAQ uses
>     - How do they know they didn't just screw something up with a
>missing tag or the like?
>   * Figure out how to produce a patch file (you can't assume that
>people with good questions and answers are open-source developers,
>just open-source users)
>   * Figure out where to send the patch file
>
>Not exactly a huge encouragement to keeping it up to date...

Correct. However, for log4j committers none of the above should
be a problem.

>Maybe a compromise, assuming that an easily editable wiki is a little
>"too open", is to put a prominent note at the top of the FAQ saying
>"If you have a question and answer that you think should be part of
>this FAQ, please send an email with the information to
>log4j-dev@logging.apache.org"  That puts a little more work on the
>log4j developers, but not much, makes it clear and easy for people to
>submit FAQ entries, and gives the developers the ability to do quality
>control.

That sounds reasonable. Would you like to do it? If the answers is yes, 
then I'll be happy to grant you back your commit privileges.

>But having three FAQs (faq.xml, the old wiki and the moinmoin one) is
>confusing and aggravating.  Two of them need to be killed, and the
>remaining one easily maintainable.

+1

>-Jim Moore

-- 
Ceki Gülcü

      For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual"
      ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp  



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