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From Casey Stella <ceste...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Slack Channel Use
Date Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:58:16 GMT
Piling on, +1 to what Justin said.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:42 PM Michael Miklavcic <
michael.miklavcic@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm also +1 to Justin's points.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 10:38 AM Nick Allen <nick@nickallen.org> wrote:
>
> > +1 to all your points Justin.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 10:08 AM Justin Leet <justinjleet@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I wanted to add back onto this thread after putting some more thought
> > into
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I like Slack for the type of small developer "what's going on here?"
> type
> > > discussions.  That's the kind of thing I like being real-time ("Hey,
> full
> > > dev is acting weird", "What's the basic layout of this stuff?",
> "Anybody
> > > else seen this test failure?", etc.).  I think we've been pretty good
> > about
> > > keeping our decision type dev discussions to the list (e.g. this exact
> > > conversation).
> > >
> > > We've been doing this more, but I would like to see more of the user
> and
> > > troubleshooting move to the list.  I think we've gotten a bit better
> > about
> > > it as we've settled into Slack, but having that sort of helpful stuff
> > > exposed and searchable for users who come in afterwards is a big
> selling
> > > point of the lists, imo.
> > >
> > > To add onto this, I'd probably like to see
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/METRON/Community+Resources#CommunityResources-ApacheMetronCommunityResources
> > > (and any other relevant links) updated to emphasize a Slack focus on
> > > developing Metron itself, and the user lists for configuration,
> > > troubleshooting, etc.
> > >
> > > Essentially, I'm proposing:
> > > Dev list / Jira / PRs as usual for any actual decisions + concrete
> > feature
> > > discussion/review.
> > > Slack for Metron development "Hey, anyone seen this or have insight or
> a
> > > starting point?" and "I'm seeing something weird in our tests" type
> stuff
> > > User list for usage and troubleshooting questions.  Generally,
> > discussions
> > > like this in Slack should be redirected to the user list.
> > >
> > > Is this a reasonable way separate our concerns here?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:37 AM Michael Miklavcic <
> > > michael.miklavcic@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yeah, I'm also surprised by that comment about the mailing list
> > activity.
> > > > Our dev/user list discussions are by far more active than they've
> ever
> > > > been. Just have a look at the list of DISCUSS threads that have come
> up
> > > in
> > > > the past few months and it's clear that not only participation has
> > > > increased, but diversity of topic and participant.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 8:08 AM Casey Stella <cestella@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Not for nothing, but at least according to the last board report
> > that I
> > > > > submitted, the user@ traffic is up 100% and the dev list traffic
> is
> > > flat
> > > > > as
> > > > > compared to last quarter.  That's not to say that we couldn't stand
> > > more
> > > > > discussion on the lists, but a lot of the dev discussion happens
on
> > > > github
> > > > > and JIRA and I'm happy to see an uptick in user traffic.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:05 AM Otto Fowler <
> > ottobackwards@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldn’t be so quick to related the slack discussion with
> > perceived
> > > > > > activity on the list.
> > > > > > That is more do to the other things that are bigger issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On October 24, 2018 at 07:15:30, Nick Allen (nick@nickallen.org)
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have heard recently people thought Metron is sort of
dead
> just
> > > > > because
> > > > > > the mailing list is not so active anymore!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is exactly my concern.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 2:49 AM Ali Nazemian <
> alinazemian@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I kind of expect to have Slack for more dev related discussions
> > > > rather
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > user QA. I guess it is quite common to expect mailing list
to
> be
> > > used
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the purpose of knowledge sharing to make sure it will be
> > accessible
> > > > by
> > > > > > > other users as well. Of course, it is a trade-off that
most of
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > Apache projects decided to accept the risk of keeping user
> > related
> > > > > > > discussions out of Slack/IRC. However, it sometimes happens
to
> > see
> > > > the
> > > > > > > mixture of questions coming to Slack. I have heard recently
> > people
> > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > Metron is sort of dead just because the mailing list is
not so
> > > active
> > > > > > > anymore!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > Ali
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:23 AM Casey Stella <
> cestella@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Agreed, the benefit of the mailing list is that it’s
> searchable
> > > by
> > > > > > > ponymail
> > > > > > > > and the major search engines.
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 17:18 Nick Allen <nick@nickallen.org
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't know that it is the same kind of searchable.
Is it
> > > being
> > > > > > > indexed
> > > > > > > > > by the major search engines? I have never used
a search
> > engine
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > uncovered the answer to my problem in a Slack
archive.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:05 PM Otto Fowler <
> > > > > ottobackwards@gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > According to Greg Stein, an infra admin
on the NiFi
> slack,
> > > the
> > > > > ASF
> > > > > > > > slack
> > > > > > > > > > that metron is in IS the standard plan,
not the free one
> > and
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > searchable
> > > > > > > > > > past 10,000 messages.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On October 22, 2018 at 15:35:51, Michael
Miklavcic (
> > > > > > > > > > michael.miklavcic@gmail.com) wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ...From an archival and broader reach point
of view, I do
> > > think
> > > > > > > there's
> > > > > > > > > > something to be said about using the mailing
list. It's
> > also
> > > > > easier
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > link
> > > > > > > > > > to Q/A threads from the mailing list archives
and do
> > > > searches...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1aa85bc13d41e04a1f85c3100c2b803abe35d79b54062bbeaab83ace@%3Cdev.metron.apache.org%3E
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How very Inception.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 1:32 PM Michael
Miklavcic <
> > > > > > > > > > michael.miklavcic@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I just want to point out that we currently
have 32
> > members
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Metron
> > > > > > > > > > > Slack channel which I personally think
is a great sign.
> > > This
> > > > is
> > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > community perspective and helps foster
interactive
> > sessions
> > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > > required.
> > > > > > > > > > > From an archival and broader reach
point of view, I do
> > > think
> > > > > > > there's
> > > > > > > > > > > something to be said about using the
mailing list. It's
> > > also
> > > > > > easier
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > link
> > > > > > > > > > > to Q/A threads from the mailing list
archives and do
> > > > searches.
> > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > such, I
> > > > > > > > > > > would also go along with Nick's suggestion
and urge
> > members
> > > > to
> > > > > > > prefer
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > user/dev list where possible.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:51 AM Justin
Leet <
> > > > > > > justinjleet@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> If we want to push more discussion
to the dev list, my
> > > > obvious
> > > > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > >> question then is "What are we hoping
to get out of
> > > > > > Slack/irc/other
> > > > > > > > > > >> interactive medium?". What discussion
would we even
> want
> > > on
> > > > > > there,
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > >> can't have decisions and don't
want usage/support?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:44 PM
Casey Stella <
> > > > > > cestella@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I am of 2 minds, but I tend
to agree. On the one
> hand,
> > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > > > > > >> > preference that we use the
mailing lists for the
> > reasons
> > > > you
> > > > > > > > stated
> > > > > > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > >> > also because not everyone
has access to slack
> > > generally).
> > > > On
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > >> > hand, I think an interactive
medium like Slack has a
> > lot
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > advantages
> > > > > > > > > > >> in
> > > > > > > > > > >> > terms of user satisfaction.
Ultimately, though, we
> may
> > > > > satisfy
> > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > >> at
> > > > > > > > > > >> > the cost of not persisting
the discussion and
> > satisfying
> > > > > many
> > > > > > > > users.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I'll go along with a specific
preference to drive
> more
> > > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> > mailing list.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Casey
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:18
PM Nick Allen <
> > > > > > nick@nickallen.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > It seems that we are
seeing a lot of Metron usage
> > and
> > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > > > >> questions
> > > > > > > > > > >> > on
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > the Slack Channel.
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > These are questions that
previously would have
> been
> > > > > directed
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> User
> > > > > > > > > > >> > or
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > Dev mailing lists. Since
this is occurring in the
> > > Slack
> > > > > > > Channel,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > conversations are not
archived.
> > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > In my opinion, this is
not good for the Metron
> > > > community.
> > > > > > > Having
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > persisted in a discoverable
form (like a mailing
> > list
> > > > > > archive)
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > >> only
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > helps support current
users, but also helps
> > > *potential*
> > > > > > users
> > > > > > > > > > >> understand
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > how Metron is being used.
> > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > Does anyone else agree
or disagree? At a minimum,
> I
> > > feel
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > >> do
> > > > > > > > > > >> > > something to direct these
conversations back to
> the
> > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > list.
> > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > A.Nazemian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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