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From "Adam Fisk" <adamf...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: grizzly versus mina
Date Thu, 24 May 2007 19:17:37 GMT
I hear you.  Sun's generally just annoying.  It would just probably be worth
taking a look under the hood to see if there's any real magic there
regardless of all th politics.  Wish I could volunteer to do it, but I've
got a startup to run!

Thanks.

-Adam


On 5/24/07, Alex Karasulu <akarasulu@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Oh yes I agree with you completely.  I was really referring to how
> benchmarks are
> being used as marketing tools and published to discredit other projects.
> Also I
> believe that there are jewels at java.net as well.  And you read me right:
> I'm no fan
> of SUN nor it's "open source" efforts.
>
> <OT>
> Back in the day when Bill Joy and Scott McNealy were at the helm I had a
> profound sense of
> respect for SUN.  I actually wanted to become an engineer there.  Now,
> IMO,
> they're a completely
> different beast driven by marketing rather than engineering principals.  I
> feel they resort to base
> practices that show a different character than the noble SUN I was used
> to.
> It's sad to know that
> the SUN many of us respected and looked up to has long since died.
> </OT>
>
> Regarding benchmarks they are great for internal metrics and shedding
> light
> on differences in
> architecture that could produce more efficient software.  I'm a big fan of
> competing
> against our own releases - meaning benchmarking a baseline and looking at
> the
> performance progression of the software as it evolves with time.  Also
> testing other
> frameworks is good for just showing how different scenarios are handled
> better
> with different architectures: I agree that we can learn a lot from these
> tests.
>
> I just don't want to use metrics to put down other projects.  It's all
> about
> how you use
> the metrics which I think was my intent on the last post.  This perhaps is
> why I am a
> bit disgusted with these tactics which are not in line with open source
> etiquette but
> rather the mark of commercially driven and marketing oriented OSS efforts.
>
> Alex
>
> On 5/24/07, Adam Fisk <adamfisk@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I agree on the tendency to manipulate benchmarks, but that doesn't mean
> > benchmarks aren't a useful tool.  How else can we evaluate
> performance?  I
> > guess I'm most curious about what the two projects might be able to
> learn
> > from each other.  I would suspect MINA's APIs are significantly easier
> to
> > use than Grizzly's, for example, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if
> > Sun's
> > benchmarks were somewhat accurate.  I hate Sun's java.net projects as
> much
> > as the next guy, but that doesn't mean there's not an occasional jewel
> in
> > there.
> >
> > It would at least be worth running independent tests.  If the
> differences
> > are even close to the claims, it would make a ton of sense to just copy
> > their ideas.  No need for too much pride on either side!  Just seems
> like
> > they've put a ton of work into rigorously analyzing the performance
> > tradeoffs of different design decisions, and it might make sense to take
> > advantage of that.  If their benchmarks are off and MINA performs
> better,
> > then they should go ahead and copy MINA.
> >
> > That's all assuming the performance tweaks don't make the existing APIs
> > unworkable.
> >
> > -Adam
> >
> >
> > On 5/24/07, Alex Karasulu <akarasulu@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 5/24/07, Mladen Turk <mturk@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Adam Fisk wrote:
> > > > > The slides were just posted from this Java One session claiming
> > > Grizzly
> > > > > blows MINA away performance-wise, and I'm just curious as to
> > people's
> > > > views
> > > > > on it.  They present some interesting ideas about optimizing
> > selector
> > > > > threading and ByteBuffer use.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://developers.sun.com/learning/javaoneonline/j1sessn.jsp?sessn=TS-2992&yr=2007&track=5
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I love the slide 20!
> > > > JFA finally admitted that Tomcat's APR-NIO is faster then JDK one ;)
> > > > However last time I did benchmarks it was much faster then 10%.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe someone could comment on the performance improvements in
> MINA
> > > > > 2.0?
> > > >
> > > > He probably compared MINA's Serial IO, and that is not usable
> > > > for production (jet). I wonder how it would look with real
> > > > async http server.
> > > > Nevertheless, benchmarks are like assholes. Everyone has one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Exactly!
> > >
> > > Incidentally SUN has been trying to attack several projects via the
> > > performance angle for
> > > some time now.  Just recently I received a cease and desist letter
> from
> > > them
> > > when I
> > > compiled some performance metrics.  The point behind it is was that we
> > > were
> > > not correctly
> > > configuring their products.  I guess they just want to make sure
> things
> > > are
> > > setup to their
> > > advantage.  That's what all these metrics revolve around and if you
> ask
> > me
> > > they're not worth
> > > a damn.  There is a million ways to make one product perform better
> than
> > > another depending
> > > on configuration, environment and the application.  However is raw
> > > performance metrics as
> > > important as a good flexible design?
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >
> >
>

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