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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail addresses
Date Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:43:36 GMT
Actually you should know I'm the main
guy who deals with the mail services
at the ASF, so yeah considering my opinion
as relevant might be wise ;-)

>From: Dave Fisher <>
>Cc: "" <>; 'Lawrence Rosen' <>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 6:38 PM
>Subject: Re: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail addresses
>Hi Joe,
>On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> Sigh, forwarding aliases are simply rows in a
>> databasesomewhere.  At one point that database
>> was owned by Oracle, and they certainly can
>> transfer it's contents to us without any concerns
>> about privacy violations.  This has nothing to
>> do with mailing list subscriptions, which are
>> a completely separate issue.  If Oracle doesn't
>> transfer the forward data to us, they stop working
>> altogether, and no reasonable active users are expecting
>> that to happen.  OTOH I have no interest at all in
>> supporting the continued use of those forwarders
>> beyond their existence in legacy OOo applications,
>> and even there I'd like to see a reasonable and concerted
>> effort to phase them out completely over a significant
>> time period.
>I think most of us agree that we do not want to keep these @OOo forwarders around for
very long.
>> I didn't see anyone respond to my earlier suggestion,
>> so I fear I may have been too reasonable forthis list.
>Sorry, I should have. Whatever is decided you are the one who will help make it so!
>Best Regards,
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <>
>>> To:
>>> Cc: 'Lawrence Rosen' <>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 4:58 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail addresses
>>> <orcmid response="in-line" />
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lawrence Rosen []
>>> <$68f003b0$3ad00b10$@com%3e>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:48
>>> To:; 'OOo-dev Apache Incubator '
>>> Cc: 'Dave Fisher'; 'Rob Weir'; 'Lawrence Rosen'
>>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail addresses
>>> Dennis Hamilton wrote:
>>>> There are problems concerning migration of
>>>>,, and
>>>>  Consequently, all
>>> ? addresses will be shut down when the
>>>> migration goes into its final stages sometime in November.
>>> Is going away or itself being renamed in November? I must have

>>> missed that announcement....
>>> <orcmid>
>>>   No,, the domain name, is being preserved,
>>>   along with migration of the site's static content and the
>>>   interactive bugzilla, wiki, and forums services.
>>>   There are other services of the web site that are not
>>>   being preserved.  This includes mailing lists that
>>>   are operated (with addresses such as users@
>>>   and an e-mail forwarding and identification service
>>>   using addresses like myname@ (not
>>>   entirely unlike orcmid@ and orcmid as an ID).
>>>   Some services running at the original http:// *.OO.o
>>>   web locations rely on the myname and myname@ OO.o as
>>>   part of an identity system.  It is also the case that
>>>   myname@ OO.o is a kind of widely-available vanity
>>>   email address that is forwarded by the service @ OO.o.
>>>   These addresses have been used, of course, as also a way
>>>   to receive mail, with the myname@ OO.o forwarded to a
>>>   "real" receiving address specified by the holder of
>>>   myname@ OO.o.
>>> </orcmid>
>>>>   1. The presumption is that these addresses (and sometimes the
>>>> services) cannot be preserved in the migration of the
>>>> http://* properties from Oracle custody to
>>>> Apache custody, even though the domain name can be preserved.
>>> I don't understand that presumption. Custody of a website has nothing to do 
>>> with the addresses within it or accessing it.
>>> <orcmid>
>>>   The problem is not with custody but with services operated
>>>   at that address once the domain and the hosting is in
>>>   Apache custody.  The presumption is that there will be no
>>>   migration of the software nor the data that supports the e-mail
>>>   forwarding and the user's ability to control the destination of
>>>   the e-mail forwarding.  So, when the hosting is done by
>>>   Apache, it is expected that this service and its data will
>>>   be lost.
>>>   Note, this is not so much about the addresses of the site,
>>>   but how name@ OO.o is forwarded when it is not
>>>   actually the address of part of the site (or, in the case
>>>   of mailing lists, even when it is).
>>> </orcmid>
>>>>   2. There is an untested presumption that it is not legal to
>>>> transfer those forwarding accounts because of rules about
>>>> privacy and European trans-national data-sharing regulations.
>>> If you can articulate this concern more clearly, I'll forward it to European

>>> attorneys who can advise us.
>>> <orcmid>
>>>   The holder of a myname@ has a password for
>>>   managing this little account.  In addition, the email
>>>   address to which myname @OO.o is forwarded is kept in
>>>   the account record.  Other information and parameters
>>>   are either public or not personal.
>>>      If the e-mail address to which forwarding occurs is
>>>   considered private data, there is a concern that having
>>>   the list be moved into Apache custody might constitute
>>>   an infraction of some privacy policy or even regulatory
>>>   policies concerning the handling and sharing of private
>>>   information.
>>>      The current location of storage of the list and
>>>   operation of the forwarding service may be material
>>>   factors in this case.
>>> </orcmid>
>>>> There is speculation that the disruption of e-mail is tolerable
>>>> and that most of the current accounts have been abandoned.
>>>> That view seems to ignore the importance of these identifiers
>>>> as part of the provenance structure for contributions to the
>>>> open-source project and the integrity of the code base and
>>>> related artifacts.
>>> I cannot personally judge the technical obstacles you identify, but my gut 
>>> tells me that we shouldn't disrupt the existing flow of Open Office activities

>>> simply because ownership has transferred to Apache. Nor will it be reasonable

>>> to ask our Infra team to manage 100K+ additional email accounts.
>>> Can you advise us what the minimum that has to be done in order to let Open 
>>> Office continue in non-crisis mode about this?
>>> <orcmid>
>>>   There are two minima that I see.
>>>   One is to allow the forwarding system to cease operation
>>>   and let the breakdowns be whatever they are.
>>>   The other is to arrange for the forwarding service to be
>>>   migrated along with the site and operated as part of the
>>>   re-hosted site still under the domain.
>>>   This will require cooperation between Oracle and Apache
>>>   Infrastructure.  Depending on the software involved, it
>>>   will involve the PPMC providing technical administration
>>>   for the maintenance of the service.
>>>   If the forwarding is migrated, there would be no provision
>>>   for adding new users.  Current users would be responsible
>>>   for maintaining their own forwarding and, when desirable,
>>>   retiring their use of the myname @OO.o at their
>>>   convenience when there is no concern for someone attempting
>>>   to send mail to it or use it as the basis for some sort of
>>>   registration.
>>>   This is independent from the concern about shut-down of
>>>   mailing lists whose names are, similarly, listname @oO.o.
>>>   Mailing lists and their archives are operated in an entirely
>>>   different way and that is a separate problem, despite
>>>   certain functional similarities.
>>> </orcmid>.
>>> /Larry
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton []
>>> <$bacd0fe0$30672fa0$>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:00 AM
>>>> To: OOo-dev Apache Incubator
>>>> Cc: 'Dave Fisher'; 'Rob Weir'; 'Lawrence Rosen'
>>>> Subject: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail addresses
>>>> There are problems concerning migration of yourname@,
>>>> listname@
>>>>, and servicename@  Consequently, all
>>>> yourname@
>>>> addresses will be shut down when the migration goes into
>>>> its
>>>> final stages sometime in November.
>>>> I don't have a solution.  I have an appraisal of the issue.  It is
>>>> something
>>>> that requires mutual understanding and, out of our mutual attention,
>>>> the
>>>> prospect of a workable solution.
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