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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: Java download link on AOO site
Date Fri, 13 Jul 2012 05:01:58 GMT
----- Original Message -----

> From: Christian Grobmeier <>
> To:
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Java download link on AOO site
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Joe Schaefer <> 
> wrote:
>>  Hello? Is this thing on?  This project has a whopping
>>  9GB website that all of maybe 5 people on the planet
>>  know how to takecare of, and it is rife with stale
>>  information inherited from a different past.  The website
>>  is a *community* resource and that means *everyone* is
>>  responsible for its upkeep.  You should be working hard
>>  to ensure that *everyone* is capable of fixing it, not
>>  making exceptions for certain committers just because
>>  they do special things for you in other areas.  Anyone
>>  can use the CMS to submit a patch, and had Hagar done
>>  at least that much I wouldn't have anything to gripe about.
>>  The technology that facilitates website maintenance happens
>>  to be a CMS, but really it is no more challenging to work with
>>  than the average wiki.  Get over it, it's not a technological
>>  barrier for anyone capable of using a web browser, that means
>>  Hagar is part of the intended user base, despite his attitude
>>  towards it.
> Joe, your tone is extremely rude and insulting. You want people to
> learn/change something? Nobody wants to hear it that way. You wrote it
> is Anti-Apache to not use the CMS. I consider it Anti-Apache the way
> you write here.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.  That's not what I said in the slightest;
if you have a beef with my language how bout reading it for content instead
of reacting to your guesses about my tone?

> Maybe the CMS is targeting Hagar. Instead of bashing Hagar for not
> using it, probably you should think about why he is not using it and
> improve the CMS. It is not so easy as a wiki. If you really think that
> than you are clearly wrong (and I say that even when I start to like
> it). If you need/want help with that, lets incubate the CMS.

Get off your hobby horse for a second and look at Hagar's behavior
in this thread.  Where can you point to evidence that the CMS documentation
has failed him?  What did he try to do and what did the CMS do instead?
You won't find that evidence because Hagar didn't bother to try, he
just asked for someone to act as his technology agent and work the
system for him.  THAT is what I am calling out as a bad example for
fellow committers to follow.  If you feel otherwise than you and I operate
in completely different foundations.

> Not every committer can deal with a CMS and this is actually no entry
> barrier to become a committer. You can become a committer for other
> reasons the technology, CMS use and such, like responding on the Forum
> or writing valuable blog posts. Saying otherwise is just wrong. Hagar
> has the same limited time for this project as many other people around
> and he wants to spend it with other tasks. I really cannot find a
> problem here and people haven shown that they can share their workload
> and do it as a team - this IS the apache way. We are not alone on a
> project and yes, you can ask other people to help you.

The biggest problem with this project is the prevalence of people who
are unskilled in the codebase occupying all the oxygen on the dev list.
This list, unlike the forums, is about project development, and teaching
others to behave in productive ways by *demonstrating* the behavior
you want to see from others here.

I've said my peace on this subject, and I'm going to withdraw from actively
monitoring the conversations here because I realize my role isn't to educate
this project any more- we're well beyond those early stages.  If people
aren't concerned with Hagar's collaborative behavior towards the site
than far be it from me to continue to make issue with it- it's not my

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