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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: Java download link on AOO site
Date Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:00:09 GMT
The thing is Dennis, it is self-defeating for the org to fund my work
on the CMS to make it a more effective collaboration tool for Apache
communities if projects don't start expecting committers and end users
alike to take advantage of it.  If this is the new norm, where application
of project documentation is no longer expected for Apachedev-list participation,
then I'll adjust my plans accordingly.  I do know that Infra would never
survive with only 3-4 staffers if we didn't expect committers to
read/apply/critique/fixour documentation.

Whether it is difficultto use the CMSor super easy makes no difference
to anyoneif only a select few areexpectedto even try.

----- Original Message -----

> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <>
> To:; 'Joe Schaefer' <>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:49 PM
> Subject: RE: Java download link on AOO site
> @Joe,
> That's not why I provide documentation.  I don't know why Hagar invests 
> all of the effort he does in tending the English-language Community Forums.  I 
> doubt it is self-defense.
> I think the present misunderstanding may be related to different pictures of the 
> worlds each of us lives in.  Projecting one's own world onto that of 
> another, without considering there may be entirely different perspectives 
> involved simply inhibits communication and learning.  Especially learning.
> The abundant evidence suggests to me that Hagar's devotion to OpenOffice is 
> invested in user-facing support and there are preferred, already at-hand tools 
> that serve his fulfillment of that ambition.  
> When a tool is not already at-hand, learning it will always introduce friction 
> and distraction from a direct, already-available path.  
> Also, a particular tool may not work very well in the existing practices of a 
> contributor.  For example, I avoid browser-based authoring when at all possible, 
> since the risk of lost work is too high and I want an opportunity to reflect and 
> refine off-line.
> The generalities and divisiveness around the merits of mailing lists, forums, 
> wikis, version-control systems, and content-management approaches demonstrates 
> to me that one-size does not fit all.  Asking someone to retool is not trivial 
> except from the perspective of those already invested and loving it.
> I find that some old dogs prefer to go where there is still limitless mileage in 
> the old tricks.  
> - Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Schaefer [] 
> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 10:58
> To:
> Subject: Re: Java download link on AOO site
> [ ... ]
> You write documentation largely as a means of self-defense so people
> will read it before occupying your time doing it for them, because it simply
> doesn't scale as a mode of operation.  Nobody paid anyone to service their 
> needs,
> so expecting others to do your work for you is anathema.
> [ ... ]

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