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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: On parks, commons, and websites
Date Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:06:32 GMT
What specific skill do you think is required that
the average citizen who participates on this mailing
list does not already possess?  Perhaps the receptacle
system is foreign to you personally, but other members of
this communityhave documented how they work. There's
even tutorials running about here and there about how
to deal with trash on the site.  All anyone expects
someone like you is to make an effort to apply the pre-written
documentationto your own circumstances.  I have little doubt
the forumswork in the same way.  If you are having trouble
locating the documentation that's something we can all
work on together.

Fixing a busted link on a website is a trash cleanup
activity.  If you are unsure whether or not it is 

a change others will agree with then opening a discussion
about it is fine.  However, website changes are CTR and
expecting other citizens to take the result of an RTC
conversation and clean up the trash on your behalf is not
exactly enlightened self-interest at work.  I've personally
witnessed individuals with severe mental and physical disabilities
follow the same instructions with success that I am expecting
you to follow in the future.  As others have witnessed to you,
your peers who have tried for themselves have not found the process
intellectually challenging enough to file formal complaints with
infra or with this project.

You can do this. Everyone on this list can do this.  All I'm
challenging people to do is to make an effort, I don't think I'm
expecting a miracle.

>From: Hagar Delest <>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:49 PM
>Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites
>This comparison is pure nonsense.
>Putting something in a trash does not require any specific skill and doesn't call for
any discussion about it.
>Imagine instead that a visitor notices a sign in your park that is showing a wrong direction.
>First, perhaps there is a reason behind this: should this sign be changed or not (because
there is evidence, not known by the visitor yet that it should not be changed)?
>Second, is the visitor skilled enough to change himself the sign? He needs a tool, then
get the right sign (perhaps there are several possibilities) and fix it.
>Do you think that a visitor would really engage in such a process?
>See the difference?
>Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 20:04:17 CEST, Joe Schaefer <> a écrit
>> Since I'm still not satisfied that people have understood
>> the point I've tried to make about the CMS and website management,
>> let me couch it in a more familiar analogy so you can better
>> understand where I'm coming from and why I do what I do.
>> Imagine your website as if it were a giant park that various
>> citizens of the planet come to observe, visit and participate
>> in.   What would you do if by chance you were a park visitor
>> and noticed that some other citizen had left behind a little
>> bit of trash in the park?
>> A lot of average citizens would say to themselves "Hey, I'm just
>> a visitor here, it's not my problem" and go on with their
>> activities ignoring the trash.
>> A more concerned citizen might say to themselves, "hey, someone
>> should do something about that trash.  Lemme go ask the park ranger
>> to clean it up."  Eventually the park ranger might do something
>> about it, but a more enlightened ranger might say to the camper
>> "I've gone ahead and put out trash receptacles in lots of convenient
>> locations.  Is it possible for you to take care of this yourself?
>> I'm quite busy tending to other areas of the park, including other parks.
>> Thanks.  I'll put up more signs explaining to visitors the importance
>> of cleaning up after themselves."
>> Some citizens might react badly to the park ranger's response, and
>> go away pissed off and ignoring the trash.  They might then complain
>> to other citizens that the park is being badly managed and should get
>> more help.
>> Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
>> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up.  Not a bad thing
>> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
>> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
>> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
>> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue.
>> Other citizens, those acting with enlightened self-interest, will
>> react differently to the park ranger's advice.  They realize the trash
>> problem is a social problem for citizens to solve, not something a park
>> ranger is equipped to deal with.  They will work alongside the park
>> ranger to post advertisements about civic responsibility, conduct community
>> awareness meetings to teach others about how to deal with trash, etc.
>> And most importantly, they will pick up whatever trash they are made
>> aware of without fuss.  Citizens like this are often recognized by the park
>> itself as friends, stewards, and volunteers of the park, and given membership
>> in the entire park system's oversight and governance.
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