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From Rob Weir <robw...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
Date Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:51:40 GMT
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo) <marcus.mail@wtnet.de>
>> wrote:
>> > I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new
>> > thread.
>> >
>> > For reference here is the old policy:
>> >
>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements
>> >
>> > My new suggestion:
>> >
>> > 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help.
>> >
>> > 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better.
>> >
>> > 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This
>> > should be translated much better than 90%.
>> >
>> > Why?
>> >
>> > 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do
>> > average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I
>> > don't think so.
>> >
>> > 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or
>> better
>> > for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release.
>> >
>> > 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc.
>> > should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here.
>> They
>> > want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated
>> > parts.
>> >
>> > And now, add your points.
>> >
>>
>>
>> I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation.   But I'd be
>> open to requiring 100% for help as well.   IMHO we should be raising
>> the bar, not lowering it.
>>
>> If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then
>> there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%.
>>
>
> In many cases, it is probably a "time" factor rather than an interest
> factor. I'm not really familiar with the normal tracking and communication
> between translation volunteers and developers on this list with respect to
> release date targets, however. Maybe this needs improvement.
>
>
>
>> There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%.  It is only
>> a question of time.  I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and
>> then release it.
>>
>> On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no
>> active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it.  If it
>> will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will
>> reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to
>> release.
>>
>
> yes, I agree.
>
>
>>
>> In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two
>> and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that
>> is better than releasing something only partially done.
>>
>> Also, there is the "slippery slope" here.  If we allow 90% complete
>> then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete.
>>
>
> again, agreement
>
>
>>
>> What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of
>> AOO 4.0, in all languages that are "close", maybe 80% or 90%.  Not for
>> release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current
>> state and help translate.
>>
>
> hmmmm...I don't know how this would mesh with Apache release policy.
>
> I  guess what you're saying is they could be handled like development
> snapshots, but ultimately fail the release test? We need to investigate
> this.
>

I mean treat it *exactly* like we do a dev snapshot.  It is not
advertised outside of the project.   The only difference is it would
be built with the AOO 4.0 release code revision.  Or think of itas
being an early build of the re-release of AOO 4.0 with additional
languages.   Eventually, if/when the translation is completed, we have
a RC at that time, and a vote and then they are released.

-Rob


>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> > Marcus
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weir<robweir@apache.org>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidt<jogischmidt@gmail.com
>> >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat<
>> >>>
>> >>> imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw>  wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version.
Did I missed
>> >>>>>>>>> something on the Traditional Chinese version?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> UI translation is not complete:
>> >>>
>> >>> https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we
have an
>> >>>>>>> agreement that we need 100% for a release?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed
on
>> the
>> >>>>>> mailing list, and properly tagged ("if it does not happen
on the
>> >>>
>> >>> mailing
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> list...").
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former
OOo times
>> we
>> >>>>>>> have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated
UI
>> >>>>>>> [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last
weeks.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0
feature
>> is
>> >>>>>> incomplete
>> >>>
>> >>> https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> How serious would it be to release this translation in such
a state?
>> >>>
>> >>> The
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not
in this
>> >>>
>> >>> 4.0.0
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> RC.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm
very
>> >>>>> sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the
previous
>> >>>>> discussion. However, there are several issues of concern:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source
>> >>>>> conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on 8/3, and plan
to
>> >>>>> announce OpenOffice 4.0. It is the first talk after the key
notes. It
>> >>>>> would be very embarrassing to announce it without a local version
>> >>>
>> >>> released.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2. There would be a large-scale deployment around August or
September
>> >>>>> (6000-7000) in a government department, and they are planning
to join
>> >>>>> our development force in order to fix some Chinese problems
in
>> >>>>> governmental use. If OpenOffice 4.0 Traditional Chinese version
is
>> not
>> >>>>> available at that time, we could only give them 3.4.1, which
their
>> >>>>> development could not be based on.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I've asked our local community to help the translation in urgent.
>> >>>>> If we can finish the Traditional Chinese sidebar translation
with
>> >>>>> certain amount, could it be OK to release it?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> let translate the UI First and then we can figure out what's possible.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hopefully some other languages can continue the translation as well
and
>> >>> we
>> >>> can think about a language only release where I am a big fan of to
>> >>> support
>> >>> local communities.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> There is obviously some tension in our goals here:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1) We want to release the good work that is already done, so users who
>> >>> can enjoy the new features, bug fixes, interop improvements, etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> 2) We also have some languages that are "almost" done and don't want
>> >>> to "miss the train".
>> >>>
>> >>> IMHO the way to resolve this tension is to let the current 4.0 train
>> >>> leave the station, but announce another train is leaving soon.  Maybe
>> >>> we can set a goal of September 16th for either a 4.0.1 (if we're
>> >>> making code changes for a new critical bug) or a language update of
>> >>> 4.0.0 (if there are only new translations).  Hopefully we all remember
>> >>> that we did this with AOO 3.4.1 as well, adding more languages after
>> >>> we released.
>> >>>
>> >>>  From what I can tell there is a steady stream of interest in
>> >>> translating AOO to other languages.  There will always be another
>> >>> language that is "almost ready".  That is what success looks like. 
We
>> >>> need to handle new translations when they are ready.  We can't hold
up
>> >>> the train, but we also can't make volunteers wait too long for the
>> >>> next train.
>> >>>
>> >>> So how does September 16th sound for releasing additional languages?
>> >>> Is that enough time?
>> >>>
>> >>> -Rob
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> This seems quite reasonable to me. We need a little time for regrouping,
>> >> and dealing with perhaps some minor issues that might pop up from the
>> 4.0
>> >> release.
>> >>
>> >> Re the old stated "policy" on :
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements
>> >>
>> >> If this no longer our policy, we should definitely change this.
>> >>
>> >> But...I think we should  first discuss the policy. What levels of
>> >> translation do we feel are acceptable if not at 100%. What do we
>> >> absolutely
>> >> require to be translated? Menus vs help files, for example.
>> >>
>> >> Once we determine translation thresholds, we should include the policy
>> on
>> >> the "Native Language" page on the project web site:
>> >>
>> >> http://openoffice.apache.org/native-lang.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>> But in general we have discussed it and I would have not released
>> German
>> >>>
>> >>> (my mother language) if the UI translation would have been not
>> complete.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just to make sure that we need active local communities who
>> participate
>> >>>
>> >>> in the project or at least in the translation part.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It would be even better if the help would be translated as well
but
>> that
>> >>>
>> >>> is a much higher burden and we are more flexible here.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Juergen
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> Success is falling nine times and getting up ten."
>                              -- Jon Bon Jovi

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