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From janI <j...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [proposal] replace build.pl with a central Makefile.
Date Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:58:40 GMT
On 18 October 2013 15:00, Andre Fischer <awf.aoo@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18.10.2013 14:02, janI wrote:
>
>> sd
>>
>>
>> On 18 October 2013 13:36, Andre Fischer <awf.aoo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  On 18.10.2013 11:32, janI wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi.
>>>>
>>>> due to the discussion in thread "Mentor a new build system", I have
>>>> made a
>>>> proposal for a central Makefile located in main.
>>>>
>>>>  Hi Jan,
>>>
>>> it is great that you are going to improve this part of the build system.
>>>   But I think that we need more details about how the proposed build
>>> system
>>> works.  Without them I can not really evaluate the proposal.
>>>
>>>  First of all, I agree with juergens remarks that this should be
>> discussed
>> before implemented, hence the wiki page.
>>
>> Secondly this has nothing directly to do with the proposed build system,
>> its a simple replacement of build.pl in the current system.
>>
>
> Yes, that is how I understood it.  I just did not know how to call the
> build.pl replacement.
>
>
>
>> I know that build.pl works, but having a Makefile in main, would make us
>> one step closer on being compatible with the distros. To me this job is a
>> simple cleanup, not something we deadly need, but nice to have.
>>
>>
>>  Some remarks regarding the missing options:
>>>
>>> --from <module>
>>>     This is one of the more important options and one that I use
>>> frequently
>>> (also in the form --all:<module>).
>>>     Note that if you are in <moduleA> and call 'make --from <moduleB>'
>>> then
>>> all modules are built
>>>     a) which <moduleA> depends on
>>>     b) but not those that <moduleB> depends on
>>>     c) Both <moduleA> and <moduleB> are built.
>>>
>>>  I have changed the documentation.
>>
>> I use the --all:<module> myself very often, and have changed the
>> documentation, because it is of course supported.
>>
>> The difference is that you do the call in main, but that is a minor detail
>> that can be easily corrected (have <module>/Makefile calling
>> main/Makefile.
>>
>> I have also changed documentation on --html due to juergens comments.
>>
>
> I am not sure that we understand --from and --since in the same way so I
> will try to explain what I think they do.
>
> Let's imagine that we have a simple project with modules A, B, C, D and E.
> where B depends on A, C on B, D on C, and E on D.
> A ' make all' would mean 'make E'.  The dependencies would then lead to
> building modules A, B, C, D, E in this order.
> If I am in E and call 'make --from C' then only C, D, and E should be
> built.  A 'make --since C' would only build D and E.
>
> If I am in D and call 'make --from B' then modules B, C, and D are built.
>  Call 'make --since B' to build only C and D.
> Note that 'make --from' accepts more than one module name (while 'make
> --all:<module>' does not).
> Note also that in the above case (stand in D, call 'make --from B') module
> A is not built, regardless of whether there are changes in A or not.
>  Whereas a simple call to make (still standing in D) would build all
> modules that D depends on, directly or indirectly.  Thus the options
> '--from' and '--since' exist to actively exclude modules from being built.
>
> The whole thing becomes a little bit more complicated with multiple
> options to '--from' (I never use '--since' and also don't know a valid use
> case so I will ignore it for now) and more complex dependencies then in the
> simple example above.  Let's say that if we stand in instsetoo_native and
> call 'make --from svx sfx2'.  Note that svx depends on sfx2.  This would
> build svx, sfx2 and all modules that depend (directly or indirectly) on svx
> OR sfx2.
>

got it, now I just have one problem, why would you not build the dependent
modules, if they needed to be built, thats a scenario I dont understand.
With a central makefile, <module>/makefile will not be called so we do not
waste cpu cycles.

With the .done files, we know when a module was last built and all modules
that depend it should be rebuilt which the rule
<module>.done : <module_depend>.done

will ensure, so If we have A -> B -> C -> D

I go in B, and call make, then when I go in D and make, B,C,D will be made.

If we have A -> B -> D   C -> D
and do the same then only D will be made.

So --from is not really saving anything ?


>
> While this is easy to do with eg Perl I am not sure how to handle this
> with just a Makefile.  The straightforward approach with handling
> <module>.done files does not work.  And that is one of the reasons why I
> don't think that (GNU) makefiles are a good solution for any problem.  Most
> of us are used to program object oriented/imperative.  Makefiles require a
> declarative approach. Maybe the use of Perl is not such a bad idea.  Maybe
> it would be better to reimplement build.pl with a lot fewer options and
> with better readable code.
>

I agree that makefiles are nowhere near a good solution to many of these
problems, but its like windows, I dont like it, but everybody uses it.

We could easily write a new build.pl, that also took care of the local
makefiles, but our build system would not be in the mainstream, and e.g.
the distros would not like to integrate AOO.

I have over the last years followed research in building systems, and there
are (sadly enough) nobody that tries a real object oriented aproach. Also
if you look at packages like visual studio, QT, eclipse they all use the
principle of makefiles with declarative approach.

So my simple question is, do we want to approach the main road (makefiles
for unix, visual studio for windows/mac) or do we want to have better but
non standard system.

rgds
jan I.

Ps. its always refreshing to discuss with you, you often have an
alternative approach, which is not just a dream but doable.


> -Andre
>
>
>>
>>  --prepare
>>>     Also one option that is important for our every day work.  Use case:
>>> You make changes in <module> and are not sure if these changes are
>>> compatible/incompatible.  To be on the safe side you discard the output
>>> of
>>> all depending modules.  To save time you keep the output of all other
>>> modules.
>>>
>>>     Often used together with '--from' like 'make --prepare --from svx' to
>>> prepare a build after making changes in svx.
>>>
>>>  Documentation changed, funny thing is that svx does not clear correctly
>> on
>> my ubuntu build.
>>
>>
>>  --since <module>
>>>     A variant of '--from'.  The only difference is that <module> itself
>>> is
>>> not built.
>>>
>>>     If your proposed approach is similar to what my script produces then
>>> it
>>> is not too difficult to support --from/--since.  I made some experiments
>>> in
>>> this direction but was to lazy to finish them.
>>>
>>>  My approach is very similar, but I failed to see how --since is
>> supported.
>> And question is if its real important.
>>
>>
>>  --job
>>> --pre_job
>>> --post_job
>>>    These are sometimes handy to run a non-standard command for all
>>> modules.
>>>
>>>  I have added them, they are by the way a good example why we need a
>> discussion I have never used them.
>>
>> However maybe the real discussion is "do we want to replace build and have
>> a main/Makefile instead?"
>>
>>
>>
>>  - I have not used the rest of the unsupported options and would not miss
>>> them.  Others may have other sets of options that are important to them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some general remarks:
>>>
>>> - Why keep one makefile per module?  Why not put all the inter-module
>>> dependencies into one file (like my script does)?
>>>
>>>  Ups, I did not explain that correctly, I propose 1 Makefile
>> "main/Makefile"
>> with all inter-module and 1 Makefile "<module>/Makefile" that today just
>> will call the old makefiles as described in prj/build.lst
>>
>> - Why not use the oportunity to move (a part of) the build environment out
>>
>>> of the way to, say, build/ ?
>>>
>>>  You have guessed my next step.
>>
>>
>>  - How are dependencies between modules handled (just the manual
>>> dependencies from prj/build.lst or also the file dependencies introduced
>>> by
>>> gmake).
>>>
>>>  See doc. on --from. Its done with <module>.done files
>>
>>
>>  - How is the output of the individual calls to dmake or GNU make
>>> handled/made accessible.  Ie. if there is a build error, how can I look
>>> up
>>> the corresponding build output?
>>>
>>>  see doc. script make_log
>>
>>  - Are the gmake makefiles included (run in the same process) or is GNU
>>> make started for them it its own process?
>>>
>>>  For a start they would be called (own process), but its something where
>> I
>> have no strong opinions.
>>
>> Please (just to be sure), this proposal has nothing to do with the
>> students
>> work, its simply because I saw a positive discussion on removing build.pl
>> ,
>> and spent a couple of hours looking at it. If there is a preference not to
>> remove build.pl I will simply forget it.
>>
>> rgds
>> jan I.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andre
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  It has been roughly tested it, thanks to a clever utility from andre.
>>>>
>>>> As discussed build.pl contains a lot of options, which need to be
>>>> considered in a makefile.
>>>>
>>>> My suggestion is on
>>>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/****wiki/Build_System_Analysis:**<http://wiki.openoffice.org/**wiki/Build_System_Analysis:**>
>>>> build.pl_versus_makefile<http:**//wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/**
>>>> Build_System_Analysis:build.**pl_versus_makefile<http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Build_System_Analysis:build.pl_versus_makefile>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please feel free to edit/comment on the page. I have reduced to options
>>>> a
>>>> lot, and some of them might be in use.
>>>>
>>>> thanks in advance for your comments.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------****----------------------------**
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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