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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: community communication versus private PMC communication, WAS: PMC FAQ update
Date Sat, 07 Mar 2015 17:49:04 GMT
I am not certain exactly what issue is proposed to be discussed here.

If you mean the over-use of private@ by the PMC, is there an issue to discuss?  Those of us
on the PMC need to be attentive to minimizing private@ discussions and bring to dev@ every
discussion that is not one of the special cases requiring discreet usage of private@.

Talking about it here doesn't seem necessary.  Who would disagree?  Those of us with PMC accountability
need to make it so.  It is expected of all PMCs.

 - Dennis

More background, since volumes of private@ usage have been presented.

There are two matters that have been brought here recently although they had wandered in and
out of private@:

   1. The changes to the PMC FAQ, involving a small comedy of errors (my synopsis)
   2. The concerns about the page on the cost of compliance
      which also involved the Legal list and some private@ chiding by ASF officials

The other major sources of recent volume on private@ involved private matters. Sometimes these
are resolved entirely without any public discussion (e.g., handling a request for or dealing
with an issue about trademark usage, votes to add new committers and/or PMC members).  

Generally, sometimes there is a privately-raised concern that is discussed until it is noticed
that it has turned into a discussion that belongs on dev@ and not private@.  It would be good
to catch those earlier.  It is up to the PMC to be vigilant and execute on those.

Anything that involves policies impacting the project itself clearly must come to dev@ if
there is ever any sort of proposition that involves conduct of the project and alignment of
the community.  A variety of privately-raised concerns simply come and go, however, even if
there is a significant flurry of discussion at first.

There are some routine items that arise from time to time on private@ but do not seem to introduce
any major spurt in volume.

With regard to the relative silence of other PMCs, I suggest that Apache OpenOffice has much
greater reach into diverse communities and corresponding areas of concern compared to many
Apache projects.  We are not homogenous and we deal with many levels of participation and
direction, much simply on account of the magnitude of the software, the sites, the intended
users, and the history.  We could be not so driven although I expect that would not resonate
on dev@, user@, or the forums.

-----Original Message-----
From: jan i [] 
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2015 01:11
To: jan i
Cc: dev
Subject: community communication versus private PMC communication, WAS: PMC FAQ update

Just realized, that many might jump over the old subject.

This issue is an important issue and should not be hidden behind another

jan i.

[ ... ]
> You are opening a very important issue here. This moderator subject was,
> but should never have been discussed in private.
> During my first round as PMC, and now in  my second round, I can see the
> private@ is being wrongly used (in my opinion, with my PMC hat on) to
> have long discussions which could just as well be public. I am convinced
> that the PMC is NOT doing this on purpose, but simply because they forget.
> Without disclosing content here are some interesting numbers:
> private@aoo compared to dev@aoo
> March: 53 on private@, 93 on dev@
> Feb: 347 on private@, 400 on dev@
> Jan: 111 on private@, 542 on dev@
> Numbers are taken from the mail archives, and might be off by a couple.
> I am a member of several projects and it is fair to say that none of the
> other private lists I follow have a similar relationship. Typically private@
> in the projects I follow count for 5-10% of the mails.
> I agree with Simon that we have a community issue here (thanks Simon for
> pointing it out, I had not made the connection between moderators and the
> use of private@)
> Some of the PMC are trying to stop the mail flood and remind the PMC group
> to make the thread publicly, but it seems to be something that takes time.
> I for one will do, as I did in the beginning of this thread (and got quite
> flamed for it) disclose my own opinion and as much as I can from private@
> without breaking the rules.
> I believe it is high time to discuss this issue openly...and hopefully not
> only contributors but also comitters will raise their voice.
> rgds
> jan I.
> S.

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