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From toki <toki.kant...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Two Languages: One ISO-639-# code
Date Tue, 19 May 2015 11:14:23 GMT


On 19/05/2015 10:20, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:

> So in ISO 639-X the most accurate you can pinpoint it is xo and then xho.
> And in glotolog; you have mpon1252 as its most precise denominator.
> 
> Now as it *happens* - this language is spoken in an area fully covered by a single country
- so you can use a 3166 as a country (-1, ZA) or (-2, ZA-EC, ZA-NL) region specifier; and
then refine it.
> As it happens that the region more or less maps to the language spoken
there (and lets argue that in that region or country no other languages
are spoken).

However, Xhosa is currently included in AOo, and is spoken in the same
country as mPondo. I _think_ that AOo currently uses ISO 3166-1 code
(IE: ZA).

> 
>> For a slightly different example, I give you Koine Greek and Attic Greek
>> .
>> Linguist-List codes them as grc-koi & grc-att, respectively.
>> ISO 639-2 code is GRC. ISO 639-3 is GRC. No ISO 639-1 code.
>>
>> I wish all dialects/languages were as accommodating as:
>> Gottolog lush1251
>> ISO 639-1 none;
>> ISO 639-2 none;
>> ISO 639-3 LUT;
>> ISO 639-3 SKA;
>> ISO 639-3 SNO;
>> ISO 639-3 SLH;
>> (Note: AFAIK, there are no spell checkers or grammar checkers for those
>> dialects, for any office suite.)
> 
> So also good examples - and I think the same applies
> 
> -	you get broad specifiers on -1, -2 level.
> -	you may get granular specifiers in -3 and -5 for the rarer/older languages.
> -	for dialects and more refined pinpointing you hit the limits of 639(-5) and have
> 	two options; petition SIL/Library of Congress to add one (above examples are all in
scope); or rely on glottolog.
> 
> and
> 
> -	using regional coding; 3166; is not really helping you - as they do not define language.

ISO 3166-2 & 3166-1 codes are useful for locales. Which is the
difference between Xhosa, and mPondo. At least, if one accepts the legal
fiction that the enclaves are part of KwaZulu, and not Eastern Cape, and
also the debatable point that mPondo is either a distinct language or a
dialect of Xhosa.

I will grant that for the First Nation languages of Australia, ISO
3166-2 codes are not helpful, because the language changes at intervals
of between five and twenty five miles. (One farm in either Northern
Territories, or Western Australia can be the home of up to a dozen
different First Nation languages.)

> Pragmatically that means using an exact -3 if you have it (i.e. the exact language match);


>relying on the nearest ‘above’ -5 language family identifier when there
is no -3 match to be had; and ONLY in the -5 case add whatever you can,
e.g. the glottolog identifier, to refine it.

That helps with most minority languages. There are some that glottolog
won't define a code for, on the grounds that they are, for all practical
purposes, extinct.

> or something along those lines. And discourage -1 and 3166 use; though permit it in :other
if there is no glottolog entry

That makes things easy.

Now to delve into a couple of spelling and grammar checkers, and change
them to those criteria.

And then submit the RFEs for those language/locales.

jonathon


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