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From Louis Suárez-Potts <lui...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Limiting Trademark Policy Discussion (was RE: [REPORT] PMC 2015-07 Private-List ...)
Date Sun, 30 Aug 2015 14:57:59 GMT
Hi,

> On 29 Aug 15, at 21:13, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> As me from my soapbox:
> 
> Any proposal for reworking trademark policies would naturally "grandfather" prior arrangements.
My hope is that any rework of policies would be more and not less generous than current reality.
> 
> I think that the project should have an open source code test for Powered By that applies
to all. The rights to use are clear for all. The obligations spelled out. Benefits given equally.

Easier said than done. I had written a longer reply on this issue but that can wait.

> 
> We should (re)acknowledge what (re)based on Apache OpenOffice requires whatever that
really is.

Yep.
> 
> Once we have a proposal that the community likes we can go through any type of confirmation
or clearance the Brand committee requires.

Indeed.
> 
> I expect that this discussion should proceed carefully and not rush into set form but
instead collect ideas focusing on different parts. There must be an opportunity to heal rifts
with respect for all.
> 
> Are you open to that discussion?
> 
> Are you open to any and all to that discussion?
> 
> This process is not against any group, but for all.

yes. I need to underscore one thing I think Dave is doing here. He’s humanising the process,
opening it up. Undoubtedly this will lead to some confusion but it won’t be serious and
it won’t fatally commit or tarnish Apache. It will actually be good, should it occur. And
it will also lead, I believe, to interested and interesting discussion, which is hugely important
and whose very existence implies trust.


> 
> Regards,
> Dave

best,
louis
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 29, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <orcmid@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>> From the Chair,
>> 
>> I don't know, off-hand, what the proportion of discussion of Trademark Policy is
in the PMC private discussion activity so far this year.
>> 
>> However, a discussion of trademark policy, as such, especially with "real and fictional
examples," is inappropriate on this list if it is about trademark enforcement.  Trademark
enforcement, when material to an issue before the PMC, is a private duty of the PMC.  There
are ways to reduce the discussion to essentials there, however.
>> 
>> Let me illustrate what I mean by this.  Let's say the Apache OpenOffice PMC has offered
arrangements, ratified VP Brand Management, by which a third party can employ AOO marks as
part of a "Powered by Apache OpenOffice" labeling.  The PMC establishes the conditions under
which that arrangement is available to individual parties and may propose custom arrangements
based on the circumstances.  That might be useful to describe and clarify here.  
>> 
>> On the other hand, proposal of conditions under which third parties might be *required*
to enter into such an arrangement is entirely different, even hypothetically.  As far as I
know that is inconsistent with the ASF view of how its mission is accomplished and its being
a good citizen in the world of open-source activities.  The ASF is by nature not litigious
and resolves concerns about inappropriate use of its marks by other means. I can't imagine
it attempting to compel use of any of its marks.
>> 
>> IMPORTANT. Trademark protection, infringement, and remedies are serious legal matters
and they are not for inexpert discussion on public mailing lists.  Suspicions of infringement
and any acting on those suspicions in public pronouncements are unwelcome.  Even disguised
accounts of specific situations relevant to this project are inappropriate.  And if not relevant
to this project, they don't belong here either.
>> 
>> To abbreviate the need for custom PMC discussions on cases of alleged trademark infringement,
I have posted a policy applicable to how the AOO PMC shall deal with any allegations of infringement
and prospective curing of such infringements at
>> <http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/openoffice/pmc/Policies/Trademark-Infringement-Allegations-2015-08.txt>.
 
>> 
>> Questions, comments, and suggestions about that text are welcome.
>> 
>> - Dennis
>> 
>> BACKGROUND INFORMATION
>> 
>> At the Apache Software Foundation, the Board delegates the determination and resolution
of trademark matters to the Vice President, Brand Management.  All external engagement with
respect to trademarks is handled discretely within the PMC and then always reviewed by, and
possibly acted upon, by VP Brand Management and only VP Brand Management.
>> 
>> Individual projects are expected to be vigilant about how marks are used and also
allowed in the domain of the project.  The Apache OpenOffice PMC conducts such activities.
 The web site page at <http://openoffice.apache.org/trademarks.html> is sufficient information
for those who have concerns for use of or infringing use of Apache OpenOffice marks.  
>> 
>> There are non-specific topical discussions on the use of marks and the naming of
software distributions based on code from ASF projects, such as recent discussions on general@incubator.apache.org
and legal-discuss@apache.org.  There are some seemingly-borderline cases that the ASF may
take a position on, and it might become necessary for the AOO PMC to be watchful for such
cases.  In general, VP Brand Management will establish what such cases are.  The determination
can easily be that some or all such cases are trifles in the context of the mission of the
ASF and will not be pursued.  The LEGAL JIRA section might also have issues related to branding
issues.  
>> 
>> 
>> - Dennis
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.net] 
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 12:45
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [REPORT] PMC 2015-07 Private-List Activity through July
>> 
>> We could reduce private traffic if we discussed the policy for trademarks in public.
The community can help write a clear policy statement with real and fictional examples. This
would serve the community by reducing private inquiries to unusual cases not previously considered
or unclearly explained.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> 
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