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From jan iversen <jancasacon...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Information for volunteers
Date Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:41:45 GMT
On 20 October 2012 23:22, Alexandro Colorado <jza@oooes.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM, jan iversen <jancasacondor@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Se below please.
> >
> > On 20 October 2012 19:21, Alexandro Colorado <jza@oooes.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:26 PM, jan iversen <jancasacondor@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I
> could
> > do
> > > > but have not (yet) done :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sorry wasnt my intention, I just want to prevent that before throwing
> > > everything out and starting from scratch, at least read what was there
> so
> > > we dont need to go through the many gotchas again.
> > >
> > > I hope you noticed the :-) I just want to get things moving, and I hear
> > you say the same thing.
> >
> > I have no intention of starting from scratch, I have used quite some
> hours
> > researching
> > - our sites
> > - libreOffice
> > - openSource (for the tools used)
> > - my old sun knowledge
> >
> > BUT my document is limited to describe the technical workflow of l10n,
> > there are soo many other things which need to be done, as you correctly
> > point out later in this mail..I think one step in the right direction is
> > better than none.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for
> > l10n
> > > > but in general for new volunteers joining in.
> > > >
> > > > But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and
> > > > committer when my document and l10n web page is ready  ?
> > > >
> > > > have a nice night.
> > > > jan
> > > >
> > > > On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <jza@oooes.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen <
> > jancasacondor@gmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information,
> that
> > > > would
> > > > > > have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out
> > there,
> > > > so
> > > > > it
> > > > > > should just be a list with links)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> > > > > > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> > > >
> > > > > - What can I do to help ?
> > > >
> > > > > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the
> way
> > > up)
> > > > > ?
> > > > > > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key
> > persons) ?
> > > > > > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can
I
> use
> > > my
> > > > > > contribution elsewhere) ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> > > > > > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly
or
> > use
> > > > > talk)
> > > > > > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything,
> > are
> > > > > there
> > > > > > any QA ?
> > > > > > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts
are
> > old
> > > > and
> > > > > > outdated) ?
> > > > > > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance
?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for a translator
> > > > > > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some
> wiki
> > > > pages
> > > > > > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting
> > > point)
> > > > > > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> > > > > > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards)
?
> > > > > > - Who do I contact to get started ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for a tester
> > > > > > - How can I help testing ?
> > > > > > - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> > > > > > - Which tools do I need ?
> > > > > > - How do I report bugs ?
> > > > > > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for a developer
> > > > > > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming
> > > > > standards
> > > > > > etc.) ?
> > > > > > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for
> > > > > Ubuntu...the
> > > > > > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for
the
> > last
> > > > bit
> > > > > (a
> > > > > > simple flag was wrong))
> > > > > > - Where do I find source ?
> > > > > > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions
?
> > > > > > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> > > > > > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more
> > > > questions
> > > > > > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we
> > > still
> > > > > not sure what will be there?
> > > > >
> > > > You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old
> > > content
> > > > untouched and making people like me utterly confused.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so
> at
> > > the
> > > > > moment the only functional part is the mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more
> > > than
> > > > just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no
> > later
> > > > than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have
> to
> > > find
> > > > a way of making it new, without long discussions of what  can go and
> > what
> > > > should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better
> than
> > to
> > > > sit on your hands).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Start by clasifying old content and links. Probably nobody would oppose
> > to
> > > put >3.x info as archived content.
> > >
> > Fine advice, I will do that...right now I am concentrating on index.html
> to
> > get it eye catchy, informative and still with look and feel of
> > openoffice.org.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non
> > > > > avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well).
> > > > >
> > > > Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing
> > > consultancy
> > > > job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC).
> > > > Glossaries is a main part of my proposal.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Those were applications on Sun/Oracle servers that were tools of the
> l10n
> > > process. Some manuals are in the site some are in the wiki. But the
> apps
> > no
> > > longer exist. We should review if these were also donated by oracle, or
> > > not, and if we want them back or go for an alternative and replace the
> > > process.
> > >
> > How can I proceed to get the manuals ? I have looked through the sites I
> > know of, without finding anything, except TCM which I think sun used for
> > the UNIX PC product line.
> >
>
> There are within one folder o the content/l10n/localization/ they are a sxw
> and odt documents. Quaste might be in /content/qa/qatestool
>
> If you are using tortoisesvn should be easy to locate.
>
got it

>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can
> > > provide
> > > > or
> > > > > QA the localized strings.
> > > > >
> > > > Just my words!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Do we want to keep it to only commiters? what if the commiter dont
> speak
> > > that language? there is nobody to approve the suggestion?
> > >
> > NO DEFINITIVELY NO, in my humble opinion...but I did suggest to make an
> > "anonymous" user on pootle for offline translators, and that was not meet
> > with positive tunes.
> >
> > I think we have to live that there are committers and contributors, and
> to
> > be honest helped in another project where it was total open and as a
> > consequence total unstable.
> >
>
> Rob is mentioning something about some user level and access. I think this
> will be dictate with the applications that are builted around the project.
> I think the main focus sould be on building this ones.
>
+1

>
>
> >
> > What we need is a clever way that contributors are offered the same
> > services, and do not feel it as a burden to go through a committer to get
> > the translation accepted. I compare it with a contributor that solves a
> > bug, it still need to go through a committer to be integrated in the
> code.
> > iitude
> > I have learned quite a lot the last weeks, this project is by far not
> like
> > many other openSource project, alone the size and scale of contributors
> > makes it different, and I hope my document will reflect that. BUT I do
> not
> > want to put too high expectations on the document, as written earlier, it
> > "simply" changes the technical process, not the atttitude towards people.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A think tank of a ML.
> > > > >
> > > > > This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n
> > list,
> > > > > however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely
> with
> > > the
> > > > > NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was
a
> > > hibrid
> > > > > of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally
> was
> > a
> > > > > mixture of  technical and community minded processes. So is
> important
> > > we
> > > > > take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of
> > this
> > > > > roadmap we should direct the future localization community into
> that
> > > > > direction.
> > > > >
> > > > I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it
> > for
> > > > sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I
> > started
> > > > writing documents.
> > > >
> > > > Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot
> > of
> > > > translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what
> happens,
> > so
> > > > lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !!
> > > >
> > >
> > > We need a call for action on Dev list, reference to the site, present
> it
> > in
> > > a manner is clear (your document), just make it easy to read and
> follow.
> > > Lengthy documents are such a ToDo. We need a: Do X, Do Y, Winning!!
> > >
> > In my document there is a project plan, but it includes only tools etc.
> not
> > how to get in touch with the NLC again.
> >
>
> There is no NLC anymore, now international mailing list are just starting
> up (which is a good thing) but no centralize piece (except here, maybe) to
> get them to exchange information.
>
I am sure we have at least the skeleton of a central piece in a couple of
weeks time. I am right now more concerned about the approval process for a
new workflow. I have learned from Andrea that a change like that can take
many weeks to decide on, in my opinion we do not have a lot of options.

>
>
> >
> > I will for sure present the document on this and the dev mailing list,
> but
> > I think we need more than that.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications,
> > and
> > > > > INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the
> > > infrastructure.
> > > > >
> > > > You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working
> for
> > > > money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want
> > to
> > > > help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come
> > > from
> > > > (having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this
> > > happen
> > > > !
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ok I have done some cleanup already on l10n, nothing major just point
> to
> > > the current ML, label some sites as outdated and pointing them back to
> > the
> > > ML page at incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. Would probably need
> help
> > > changing all that to the top level domain now.
> > >
> >
> > I am working on it, as of now, I have been through all pages, marking
> them
> > as old or to be kept (in my opinion).
> >
> > I run it on my personal apache, and once it works as I like, I intent to
> > tarball it, and ask you to have a look at it, and then I am not sure what
> > is the correct way:
> >
>
> I guess is what way of doing it, I preffer the "release fast, release
> often, iterate". Than having through go throw a bunch of diff files.
>
Point taken, I will send it page by page.

>
>
> > 1) publish and correct the objections received
> > 2) put up on a test site (where?) and wait until there are no more
> > objections.
> >
> > Right now I think there are only very few people who concern them self
> > about  the l10n workflow and even less who have an opinion about the
> site.
> > I have however some opinions and time to present them....we NEED BADLY to
> > get the NLC community back together, before the forget AOO and drift
> > elsewhere.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what
> > > > > LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap:
> > > > > http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/
> > > > >
> > > > You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the
> > years
> > > to
> > > > come, but I think I have other skills to offer.
> > > >
> > >
> > > There are Quaste and TCM manuals on the site/wiki, please speed read
> them
> > > to make sure u know what this meant.
> > >
> > If I read it correctly TCM (as I had guessed from SUN) is a predessor to
> > Quaste a UI test tool and Quality ensurance tool
> >
>
> Yes TCM stand for Test case management, which are  collection of testing
> process to go through the application and grade it on a [pass, fail, skip
> and comment]. All this for the different versions, architectures.
>
> There is also a Sanity Check which is more automated, this is better
> explained on the wiki. Locale communities can wait for dev to release the
> milestones after the code freeze or do an internal build before this and
> run their own test processes. At the moment we needed some help on making
> the flow faster and having "on demand" builds.
>
In my proposal I have an automated generation of language files (.po or
.xliff), so if a person runs "build --all", all language files will be
ready for translation, I cannot to that easier.


>
>
> >
> > I had the impression, that we have automated test tools, that test our UI
> > with each release ?? (at least there is a directory with a name that
> hints
> > that functionality). I have just written in my document that these tools
> > should be able to run the same tests for language versions.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far
> > as
> > > > > terminology management.
> > > > >
> > > > That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs
> in
> > > SVN
> > > > alongside with translations !!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ok still, need to decide on the best methdology.
> > > * Maintaining an ods (binary) would be a pain.
> > >
> > Yes, My intention was to keep it as a file (.po or .xliff)
> >
> > > * svn is limited for contributors, we would make it hard for the casual
> > > contributor, so what to do?
> > >
> > We can still make a php script on l10n.openoffice.org that generates a
> zip
> > file ready for download. Upload needs to be committed.
> >
>
> > I think the advantages of using SVN are so much higher (think of
> tracking,
> > reviews etc), than only to use a simple filestore, so I would live with
> the
> > fact that is has to go through a committer (just like code changes).
> >
>
> I wonder if we can re-tuilize the CMS engine to generate CRUD apps for
> this, or should we generate the apps elsewhere. However this will add to
> your previous issue about having and mantaining multiple accounts.
>
You have a point...we could also use wiki, if we could get a php script
triggered we are home safe. That way offline translators could "submit" the
translation as an upload to a web page or wiki, and the script would either
hold the file in a staging area waiting for a committer to commit it, or
(which I prefer) autocommit it with a special user.

>
>
> >
> > * There are some old glossaries on the site for English, Greek, Russian,
> > > and Servian on csv already on the l10n/localization/ folder.
> > > * Include this in pootle (Libo do this) you can see this for spanish
> > >
> > If my proposal is accepted I will do this, and I would also like to call
> > the community because I know there is f.x. a german glossary as well. The
> > danish glossary might have been lost, because of the "border" between LO
> > and AOO.
> >
> > > https://translations.documentfoundation.org/es/
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Other non product related activities like website making it more
> > > flexible
> > > > > with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage
> > the
> > > > > right locale for users.
> > > > > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js
> > > > >
> > > > > So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation
> > > > > intelligence.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > > Alexandro Colorado
> > > > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > > > > http://es.openoffice.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a
> team
> > > and
> > > > put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can
> > by
> > > > catalysts to get things moving !
> > > >
> > > > There are 3 big issues outstanding:
> > > > - get a more robust l10n workflow in place,
> > > > - get the l10n documentation in place,
> > > > - get the people involved back together.
> > > >
> > > > But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different
> > > skill
> > > > sets.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with
> > editing, I
> > > > cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking.
> > > >
> > > > have a nice night.
> > > > janI.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Alexandro Colorado
> > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > > http://es.openoffice.org
> > >
> >
> > Have a nice night
> > Jan.
> >
> > Ps. you reference es. may I ask where in spain are you located, I live in
> > alora/andalucia ?
> >
>
> I am not located in Spain, I am in Cancun, Mexico.
>
Nice place, I had a project long time ago at the border to belize, which I
think is relatively close.

>
> --
> Alexandro Colorado
> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> http://es.openoffice.org
>

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