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From Aivaras Stepukonis <>
Subject Re: +oswmg||Formula
Date Tue, 03 Sep 2013 21:21:36 GMT
2013.09.03 23:24, Regina Henschel rašė:
> Hi Aivaras,
> Aivaras Stepukonis schrieb:
>> 2013.09.03 19:36, Regina Henschel rašė:
>>> Hi Aivaras,
>>> Aivaras Stepukonis schrieb:
>>>> The expression "+oswmg||Formula" occurs both in
>>>> Writer > View > Toolbars > Formula
>>>> and
>>>> Writer > Table > Formula.
>>> The commands are identical. Both are command '.uno:InsertFormula'. The
>>> string is bound to the command and therefore the string is the same.
>> I am not a programmer and therefore cannot comment on the program's
>> inner technical workings and limitations.
> It describes the current design. It does not mean, that it has to be 
> this way forever.
>>>> In Lithuanian, I need to use two different grammatical endings for 
>>>> these
>>>> two instances and, of cause, I cannot accomplish this because it is 
>>>> one
>>>> and the same string.
>>> What is the reason, why do you need two different strings? It is in
>>> both cases a simple menu item.
>> As an object it may be one and the same, but it is being address through
>> a language that may in fact pay attention to the shifting environment in
>> which that object is being addressed.
>> Context 1: Writer > View > Toolbars > Formula. Proper Lithuanian
>> translation would be this: Rodyti > Priemonių juostas ("-as" =
>> accusative) > Sprendinio ("-io" = genitive). "Sprendinio" is in the
>> genitive case because it refers back to "Priemonių juostas", meaning
>> something like "[Toolbar] of/for Formula", the part in brackets being
>> assumed.
>> The main thing to learn from this is that, in Lithuanian, there is a
>> grammatical connection between "View", "Toolbars" (which are viewed),
>> and "Formula" (which is an attributive adjective for a "toolbar").
> That is interesting. I would have never seen it that way. We in German 
> interpret the items more like separate headings.
> If needed we can easily combine words. In this special case we could 
> use 'Rechenleiste' (Google translates this to 'formulė Baras' in 
> Lithuanian), and we indeed use 'Rechenleiste' in the extended tip.
There are ways to work around the situation in Lithuanian, too, but they 
are what they are - workarounds. And the linguistic outcome of such 
workarounds is a general impression of unnaturalness and artificiality 
in the Lithuanian translation that is alienating for the end user. It 
may be so because the Lithuanian language requires a greater degree of 
interconnectedness than some other languages. German might be more 
tolerant in this respect and closer to English (which is a Germanic 
language, after all).

And that Google translation... You know what it means? Well, it's a 
"formula pub"! Not that driving a formula 1 car to a local pub to get a 
drink may not involve a math formula of sorts...
>> Context 2: Writer > Table > Formula. In this particular instance,
>> "Formula" should be translated by "Sprendinys" ("-ys" = nominative)
>> because it is preceded by a noun requiring no grammatical adjustment.
>> As a result, context 1 needs the genitive case, context 2 the nominative
>> case. A word in the nominative case when it should have been in the
>> genitive looks like a mistake. I am very uncomfortable with this state
>> of affairs...
> I understand your dilemma. What to do? You should at least document in 
> Bugzilla, that there is a problem, and that there is something needed 
> like a conditional translation.
I'll do this some time after September 6th.
>>>> In the future, I would be nice two have two strings instead of one.
>>> I see no way to provide different strings, because the context is the
>>> same, in both cases 'swriter'.
>> Contexts are make up of sub-contexts and it is the latter, not the
>> former, that may be the determining factor in deciding why a certain
>> ending, tense, case, gender, number, you name it!, is the proper
>> translation of a short phrase.
>> If there is no technical means to accommodate languages in UI without
>> crippling them (to a lesser or greater degree), than, oh well, there is
>> none. My intention is to bring this issue up for constructive discussion
>> as well as to contribute our general awareness of the cultural
>> differences that are there in the world for real.
> That request is reasonable. It is important that we listen to each 
> other and try to understand the problems of others. Therefore my asking.
> Kind regards
> Regina
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