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From Ian Bicking <i...@colorstudy.com>
Subject Re: modular mod_python extensions vs. "folding" mod_psp
Date Mon, 09 Jun 2003 00:38:46 GMT
Hi, to introduce, I'm coming in as a Webware developer, and this is the
first post I've seen on the subject.

On Sun, 2003-06-08 at 15:18, Rimon Barr wrote: 
> Dear Jack,
> 
> >Holy Cross Posting Batman!
> >I'm just replying to the proper forum (python-dev@apache)
> 
> I feel that this topic involves more than the just the mod_python
> development list. It involves also the developers that use mod_python to
> create Python frameworks based on mod_python, and also the users of
> those systems. I selected only a few frameworks that I have posted to
> before, and that I know are rather mature projects. You are free to
> address your replies as you please.

And also to clarify, Webware doesn't in any significant way use
mod_python.  However, I suspect you copied the Webware list because we
also have something called PSP.

> The concern is not about conspiracy, but on the effect of the inclusion.
> The inclusion of mod_psp, excludes other frameworks, because it becomes
> the defacto standard through an arbitrary linkage to mod_python rather
> than through its independent merits. It thereby stifles the progress and
> interest in other solutions unnecessarily.

There is certainly a naming issue around PSP.  I don't believe Webware
was the first to use the term (though I wasn't involved when it was
first developed); I do believe Webware is probably the oldest one
standing.  But I don't think any Webware developer is going to get bent
out of shape about these naming issues.

However, I do think there is a problem that the PSP name is ambiguous. 
There are, as I see it, two separate models of what PSP could mean --
JSP and ASP (PHP being like ASP, but it doesn't end in SP :).  Webware
implements a JSP-like system, with underlying servlets and PSP being
essentially syntax ontop of those servlets.  Most other PSPs, I assume
mod_psp included, implement ASP- or PHP-like systems, where a PSP page
is just syntax for a single script, run start to finish.  (And, just to
muck things up a little more, you can use ASP with Python)

So, maybe mod_psp implements PSP well, but it's only one kind of PSP. 
(PyHP is a name used by a now-defunct project to do what you'd expect) 
I can't really identify a resolution, the name is just ambiguous, and
the concept can be implemented in more than one way (without even trying
to be novel).


But maybe I'm just going off on something that's not really the topic of
your concern -- there's also the issue of what framework becomes the
Canonical Framework.  That's another conversation -- and certainly a
useful conversion to have! -- but I don't think mod_psp forces that
issue.  Especially if mod_psp doesn't try to implement the PSP concept
in a particularly novel way, i.e. it sticks to a pretty conservative
definition of what PSP does.

  Ian



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