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From Roger Hoover <roger.hoo...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Trying to achieve deterministic behavior on recovery/rewind
Date Tue, 09 Sep 2014 22:43:28 GMT
Hi Chris,

I think the config is not too bad as it.  Hey, it's not XML!!!

Maybe there are ways to make it better.  These are some things that come to
mind for me but I haven't really though through:

- What about a way to specify a DAG for the job? From the developer's point
of view, she mostly cares of the data flow.  Maybe there could a pluggable
naming schema for topics in between jobs so that you don't have to
explicitly name them???  You'd want a nice way to specify this.  YAML??
 Using job-name:

wikipedia-feed
  - wikipedia-parser
      - wikipedia-stats

Ideally, that would be enough to wire everything together???

- Support a programatic, code-level API for building, validating and
deploying jobs?  Hopefully, this would make it possible to build
higher-level frameworks on top that could dynamically generate jobs.  I
don't know if I'd ever want to do this but if the API is there, you never
know what will spring up.
- Support for validation during build and during runtime initialization to
catch errors early.
- Can sensible defaults make the config less verbose?
  - What about on/off switches for things like metrics and checkpointing?
 If don't specify otherwise, you get the default metrics package and Kafka
checkpointing.


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Chris Riccomini <
criccomini@linkedin.com.invalid> wrote:

> Hey Roger,
>
> This summary sounds pretty reasonable to me, on the Samza side, anyway. I
> can't comment on the others, as I don't have a great understanding of
> their internals.
>
> I agree with you about the knock on Samza's config system. It's something
> I think we'll need to resolve, but we don't have a concrete proposal on
> how, yet. Given that you've had a look at these three systems, do you have
> any feedback on what you'd like to see. The topic-name issue is a
> relatively specific problem, but maybe you have thoughts on a higher-level
> design that you'd like to have?
>
> Right now, we have:
>
> 1. We mix wiring and config in config files. Wiring in configs leads to
> runtime errors. We have no code-level "builder" for assembling a job, and
> no DI framework.
> 2. Everything is a k-v string pair. Nothing is hierarchical.
> 3. Config is exposed to developers via a single Config object, that's
> nothing more than a Map<String, String> with some helper methods.
>
> Do you have any thoughts on what you liked from the other frameworks, and
> what you'd like to see Samza do in this area?
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
> On 9/8/14 2:23 PM, "Roger Hoover" <roger.hoover@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi Chris,
> >
> >We've been looking at Samza for a number of use cases ranging from system
> >monitoring to user activity analysis for a pretty large retail website.
> > For system monitoring, for example, we want to push system performance
> >events into Kafka then have Samza jobs enrich these events with additional
> >context such as information about the deployment topology and/or the user
> >who triggered it.  Then we want to feed the enriched streams into various
> >data stores including Elasticsearch and Hadoop for analysis.
> >
> >I've been diving into Samza, Spark Streaming, and Storm.  So far, I'm
> >impressed with the simplicity of Samza.  I feel like it's the easiest to
> >reason about and can scale up to larger teams where not everyone is an
> >expert on the framework.  I may be wrong about some of my conclusions so
> >I'm interested in anyone else wants to share their experience.
> >
> >Samza
> >  - The simplest to reason about from a developer's perspective.  Tasks
> >are
> >single threaded and the API is very simple to understand.  Local state
> >management API simplifies the developer's job a lot and should give
> >excellent performance.  Scalability is well defined (parallelism is
> >determined by number of Kafka partitions + number of tasks).  Topologies
> >are explicit.  You create tasks for each step and wire them together.
> >  - The simplest to operate because each task is independent from the
> >others.  Kafka protects against backpressure and provides fine grain fault
> >tolerance.  Seems unlikely that a poorly written job/task will hurt more
> >than itself.  Other than Kafka, there are minimal network dependencies.
> > There are relatively few moving parts.
> >  - The framework is pretty lightweight, relying Kafka and YARN to do most
> >of the work.  Fantastic documentation!
> >  - The primary downside that I see is that there is a lot of wiring
> >involved and may be easy to mess it up.  For example, topic names need to
> >specified both in the code and the config and need to match across
> >tasks/jobs.  You probably won't know that you've screwed up until you find
> >a task is not receiving any messages.  You also have to change both the
> >code and the config if you change the name of a topic.  In larger
> >organizations, these activities might be done by people on different
> >teams.
> >
> >Storm
> >- Trident will do some auto-wiring of topologies but it's hard to reason
> >able the generated topologies, especially transactional behavior.
> >- Managing non-local state can be tricky to get right.
> >- There are lots of moving parts that have to be tuned (LMAX disruptor
> >queues, 0mq queues)
> >- Ships closures around the cluster.  Makes it hard to work with things
> >like JRuby.
> >- Framework provides things like cluster management/scheduling that can be
> >done elsewhere (YARN or Mesos)
> >
> >Spark Streaming
> >- Quite a few things are implicit.  You write jobs as if they were going
> >to
> >execute in a single process.  These get broken into stages and scheduled
> >on
> >the cluster.  You need a pretty good understanding of this process to
> >write, debug, and tune these jobs.  I think it's fairly easy to
> >accidentally include a reference to a large Java object in worker code and
> >have it shipped across the network unintentionally.
> >- All the code/objects that run on workers must be serializable.  I'm
> >guessing this can be quite annoying.  Samza ships the jar to the worker so
> >I think it should be able to run anything (JRuby for example).
> >- The driver process is a single point of failure, the only place were
> >some
> >job state is saved.
> >- Seems operationally risky.  As far as I can tell, a slow consumer tie up
> >the entire cluster.  This is because there is no backpressure that stops a
> >driver from producing more and more DStreams, even if consumers cannot
> >keep
> >up.  The tuning guide suggests that everytime you make a change to a job,
> >you need to tune your settings again (
> >
> https://spark.apache.org/docs/latest/streaming-programming-guide.html#perf
> >ormance-tuning
> >).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Roger
> >
> >
> >On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Chris Riccomini <
> >criccomini@linkedin.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Hey Roger,
> >>
> >> > After thinking more about it, I don't think we can get to the
> >> >deterministic behavior we talked about until Kafka supports idempotent
> >> >producers.
> >>
> >> Yes, I agree. To get fully deterministic behavior, you do need
> >>idempotent
> >> producers + deterministic message ordering (or Kafka transactionality)
> >>at
> >> the Kafka level. We plan on relying on Kafka transactionality when the
> >> patch is committed. Without this, it's possible to output two different
> >> "correct" answers (for my definition of correct), or two of the same
> >> "correct" answers (for your definition of correct).
> >>
> >> > I created a JIRA ticket in case it helps spur action or keep the
> >> >conversation from getting lost.
> >>
> >> Awesome, thanks!
> >>
> >> Out of curiosity, what are you using Samza for? You seem to have quite a
> >> deep understanding of it. :)
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> On 9/4/14 10:06 AM, "Roger Hoover" <roger.hoover@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Chris, Chinmay,
> >> >
> >> >After thinking more about it, I don't think we can get to the
> >> >deterministic
> >> >behavior we talked about until Kafka supports idempotent producers.
> >>The
> >> >reason is that duplicate messages mean that we can't rely on strong
> >> >ordering.  If a duplicate of update U1 can show up anytime, then we can
> >> >never rely on ordered updates because we might see U1 then U2 then U1
> >> >again.  I guess we could try to handle this at the application layer
> >>but
> >> >not at the Samza layer yet, I think.
> >> >
> >> >Nonetheless, some of the changes we discussed may help get closer and
> >> >still
> >> >make sense to implement.  I created a JIRA ticket in case it helps spur
> >> >action or keep the conversation from getting lost.  If you don't find
> >>the
> >> >ticket useful at this time, feel free to close it.
> >> >
> >> >https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SAMZA-405
> >> >
> >> >Cheers,
> >> >
> >> >Roger
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Chinmay Soman
> >> ><csoman@linkedin.com.invalid>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> > bootstrapping is ever necessary on recovery or rewind.  Seems
like
> >> >>it's
> >> >> only needed for cold start.
> >> >>
> >> >> I think you're right. Either ways, it looks like there should be
> >> >> additional support for this.
> >> >> ________________________________________
> >> >> From: Roger Hoover [roger.hoover@gmail.com]
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 9:43 AM
> >> >> To: dev@samza.incubator.apache.org
> >> >> Subject: Re: Trying to achieve deterministic behavior on
> >>recovery/rewind
> >> >>
> >> >> Chinmay,
> >> >>
> >> >> Thank you for the feedback.  Responses inline.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Chinmay Soman
> >> >><csoman@linkedin.com.invalid
> >> >> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > That's interesting !
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 1) Deterministic reading from a bootstrap stream:
> >> >> > We could define a changelog for the local state (which in turn
is
> >> >> > populated using a bootstrap stream). If the job fails at this
> >>point,
> >> >> > ideally, it should be restored using a changelog stream (instead
of
> >> >> > bootstrapping again) in order for the job to be deterministic
(as
> >>you
> >> >> > suggest). Thus there could be a check which either selects the
> >> >>bootstrap
> >> >> > mode or the changelog restore mode (depending on whether a
> >>changelog
> >> >> > exists).  I'm not sure if this check exists today (I would guess
> >>no).
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, I was wondering about this for event-table join.   If you're
> >>only
> >> >> storing the join table in the local store then the change log stream
> >>and
> >> >> the bootstrap stream are duplicates of each other.  One of them is
> >> >> unnecessary unless you add additional state to the local store.  In
> >>any
> >> >> case, I'm wondering if bootstrapping is ever necessary on recovery
or
> >> >> rewind.  Seems like it's only needed for cold start.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2) Deterministic changelog:
> >> >> > You're right - there could be a (smallish) window where we
> >>re-process
> >> >> some
> >> >> > of the input records on a container restart. This can happen since
> >>the
> >> >> > changelog can be (a little ahead) of the last checkpoint for a
> >>given
> >> >> input
> >> >> > stream. However, I would argue the changelog is still
> >>deterministic in
> >> >> this
> >> >> > case. Since currently Samza only guarantees at-least-once
> >>semantics,
> >> >>this
> >> >> > seems to be OK
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hmmm...seems like this will violate the correctness definition that
> >> >>Chris
> >> >> outlined where there may be two or more "correct" choices but the
> >>system
> >> >> would guarantee that only one will be produced.  But now that you
> >> >>mention
> >> >> it, I don't know if that can ever been guaranteed with an
> >>at-least-once
> >> >> system.  If a task can always see duplicates, it may process the
> >>first
> >> >>with
> >> >> it's local state in state S1 then modify it's state to S2 and then
> >> >>process
> >> >> the duplicate.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 3) Deterministic MessageChooser:
> >> >> > The in-order problem could be avoided, if we restore the state
from
> >> >>its
> >> >> > changelog - which was originally populated by a 'bootstrap stream'.
> >> >>The
> >> >> > task can then just pick up from where it left off (making the
> >>system
> >> >> > deterministic). Having said that, there might be value in writing
> >>an
> >> >> > 'EarliestFirstChooser'.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Agreed.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Again, this is just my perception (which could be wrong - I'm
still
> >> >> > learning).
> >> >> > C
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ________________________________________
> >> >> > From: Roger Hoover [roger.hoover@gmail.com]
> >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 8:52 AM
> >> >> > To: dev@samza.incubator.apache.org
> >> >> > Subject: Trying to achieve deterministic behavior on
> >>recovery/rewind
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Samza devs,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think this project has the best documentation I've even seen!
> >> >>Amazing
> >> >> > job.  It's extremely well written and Hello Samza is a really
great
> >> >> example
> >> >> > that I was able to run + modify without issue.  It was a joy
> >>reading
> >> >>the
> >> >> > docs and playing around with example.  Kudos!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > After thoroughly reading all the docs, I still have a few questions
> >> >>and
> >> >> > would appreciate any feedback.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I was thinking about how to support deterministic behavior on
> >> >>recovery or
> >> >> > rewind.  Maybe it can't always be 100% deterministic but I think
we
> >> >>can
> >> >> get
> >> >> > close.  Have other people thought about this?  Is it desirable?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > For example, let's say we're joining two streams: orders and
> >> >>user_info.
> >> >> As
> >> >> > orders come in, we use the user_id field of the order to lookup
> >> >> additional
> >> >> > information about the user and enrich the stream.  Say we're
> >>keeping
> >> >>all
> >> >> > the user_info state in the local KV store.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > t1: User updates her email to "foo1@bar.com"
> >> >> > t2: User buys a pair of jeans (product_id == 99)
> >> >> > t3: User updates her email to "foo2@bar.com"
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In the case of normal operation (no delays in the user_info
> >>stream),
> >> >>the
> >> >> > enriched record will be:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > {product_id: 99, email: "foo1@bar.com", ...}
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But say that our job fails before it can checkpoint and is
> >>configured
> >> >>to
> >> >> > bootstrap from user_info.  When it gets restarted and bootstraps
> >>from
> >> >>the
> >> >> > user_info stream, it will end up with the email set to
> >>"foo2@bar.com"
> >> >>in
> >> >> > the local KV store.  Then it will reprocess the order event and
> >> >>produce
> >> >> the
> >> >> > "wrong" output:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > {product_id: 99, email: "foo2@bar.com", ...}
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I haven't verified that but the documentation says "a bootstrap
> >>stream
> >> >> > waits for the consumer to explicitly confirm that the stream has
> >>been
> >> >> fully
> >> >> > consumed."  Shouldn't it wait until it's consumed up the the
> >> >>checkpoint
> >> >> > offset for the bootsrap stream instead (when there is saved
> >>checkpoint
> >> >> > offset)?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Likewise, for local state replicated in the change log.  During
the
> >> >> > checkpoint process, Samza could include it's producer offset in
the
> >> >> > checkpoint data so that during recovery, the local state will
be
> >> >>restored
> >> >> > to a state that corresponds with it's offsets for the input
> >>streams.
> >> >> >  Everything would be coherent rather than having the input streams
> >> >> restored
> >> >> > to checkpoint and local state restored to most recent value. 
I'm
> >> >> assuming
> >> >> > that change log commits for local state and checkpoint are done
> >> >>together
> >> >> in
> >> >> > an atomic transaction so that they may not always match.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The other missing piece is a nearly deterministic MessageChooser.
> >> >>During
> >> >> > recovery + rewind, all the messages in both streams are already
> >> >>present
> >> >> in
> >> >> > Kafka and we want a way to replay them in the same order as if
they
> >> >>were
> >> >> > played in real-time.  The only way to approximate this behavior
> >>that I
> >> >> can
> >> >> > see is to use Kafka broker timestamps for each message.  Is it
> >> >>possible
> >> >> to
> >> >> > write an "EarliestFirstChooser" that always chooses the oldest
> >>message
> >> >> > available according to the timestamp it was received by the Kafka
> >> >>broker?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't know if Kafka stores a timestamp with each message but
I'm
> >> >> assuming
> >> >> > it does because it supports an API on the simple consumer called
> >> >> > getOffsetsBefore() that would seem to map from timestamps to
> >>offsets.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Finally, a nit pick.  I'm using Samza 0.7.0 but the metrics data
> >>has
> >> >>the
> >> >> > version as {"samza-version": "0.0.1"}.  Is this intentional?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If it makes sense, I can put in some JIRA tickets for this stuff...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Cheers,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Roger
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>

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