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From Venkat Ranganathan <vranganat...@hortonworks.com>
Subject Re: Discussing solutions to Sqoop1 and Sqoop2 confusion (was: Code name for Sqoop 2)
Date Fri, 01 Aug 2014 18:46:45 GMT
+1 for propsal 1 also

Thanks

Venkat

On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Jarek Jarcec Cecho <jarcec@apache.org> wrote:
> I don’t have any other suggestion either, so let’s discuss which one would people
prefer?
>
> I’m personally in favor of proposal 1).
>
> Jarcec
>
> On Jul 28, 2014, at 10:04 AM, Gwen Shapira <gshapira@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the great summary. I don't have additional suggestions.
>>
>> Gwen
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Arvind Prabhakar <arvind@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Thanks Gwen and Jarcec. It appears that we all agree to the few basic
>>> points below:
>>>
>>> a) Sqoop2 is promising effort although not near completion. We agree that
>>> there is no need to discuss shutting that down at this time.
>>> b) The naming of Sqoop2 is such that it raises expectations in
>>> users/adopters to be better than Sqoop(1) and thus leads to confusion.
>>>
>>> The second point (b) above is the key issue that needs resolution. The
>>> options discussed thus far are as follows:
>>>
>>> 1. Put a code name for Sqoop2 so that it is not confused with Sqoop(1).
>>> This seems to have good community support.
>>> 2. Use a explicit labels such as "stable" vs "beta/alpha/experimental" for
>>> various Sqoop releases.
>>> 3. Use explicit UI messaging to warn Sqoop2 users that it is not the same
>>> as Sqoop(1) and is far behind on feature completeness and stability. There
>>> seems to be some concerns around how this can be done given the
>>> client/server architecture of Sqoop2.
>>> 4. A combination of options 2 and 3 above.
>>>
>>> Are there any suggestions to mitigate this problem? Perhaps we should
>>> cross-post this thread to user list as well to see if they agree with the
>>> options here and/or if they have any other suggestions.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Arvind Prabhakar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Jarek Jarcec Cecho <jarcec@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Arvind,
>>>> thank you very much for sharing your concerns! You’ve risen a very good
>>>> points.
>>>>
>>>> I personally see value in Sqoop 2 as the new architecture will allow us to
>>>> cover much more use cases, various compliancy regulations and will
>>>> eventually simplify user’s life. Based on the recent increase in dev
>>>> activity, it seems that I’m not the only one who do believes in that and
>>>> hence I strongly believe that discontinuing the effort doesn’t seem as
the
>>>> right way to go. I’m more then happy to discuss this topic further if you
>>>> believe that it’s the right way though.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that I do believe in Sqoop 2, I have to second Gwen that
>>>> current situation is very confusing to our users. I’ve seen significant
>>>> number of users confused about why 1.99.4 do not have Avro/HBase/Hive
>>>> integration when Sqoop 1 already have that. I was anticipating the
>>>> confusion and hence I’ve suggested to use version number 1.99.x instead
of
>>>> 2.0.0 back when we were working on getting the first cut out of the door.
I
>>>> hoped that version 1.99.x will make obvious to everybody that it’s not
>>>> “2.0.0” quite yet. Sadly it seems that this alone did not helped as much
as
>>>> I hoped.
>>>>
>>>> Hence I do see value in changing our public messaging as you’ve suggested
>>>> to make the message more clearer. I personally like the idea with code name
>>>> as that is quite popular in other projects and companies (remember Windows
>>>> Longorn?) and it seems to be conveying the message. I do see a lot of
>>>> variability of using that code name though - I don’t think that we
>>>> necessarily have to remove any possible reference to “Sqoop 2” from the
>>>> face of earth. I believe that the code name is very well suited for our
>>>> webpage, wiki and perhaps a blog posts to make obvious that there is just
>>>> one single stable Sqoop version and then some ongoing effort that do have
>>>> available several cuts. I believe that just by doing that we will decrease
>>>> confusion about what version should user download and use. We can discuss
>>>> to what extent we want to push the code name and to what extent we will
>>>> keep the reference to “Sqoop 2”. After all I’m confident that in not
too
>>>> distant future, we will have Sqoop 2  that will offer the comparable
>>>> capability and features as Sqoop 1.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t think that the code name is the only idea that will decrease the
>>>> immediate user confusion and hence I’m happy to hear others thoughts!
>>>>
>>>> Jarcec
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 26, 2014, at 6:00 PM, Gwen Shapira <gshapira@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Arvind for your detailed explanation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that naming releases stable and alpha is a good idea. I don't
>>>>> agree that it will solve the issue, but we can't know until we try.
>>>>>
>>>>> Considering that Sqoop2 is intentionally a client-server architecture
>>>>> with multiple clients and a REST API as an additional access point, I
>>>>> believe that it is not feasible to mark UI as beta.
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to stress that I personally believe that Sqoop2 is a very
>>>>> viable branch effort, to the extent that I am actively contributing to
>>>>> it.
>>>>> As Sqoop2 becomes more and more viable alternative to Sqoop1, we need
>>>>> to prepare, as a community, to support both versions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Considering the number of features currently in Sqoop1 and the number
>>>>> of production Sqoop1 users, I can see us supporting both versions for
>>>>> the next 2 years. Making it easy for the community to support both is
>>>>> my top concern here. Having to resolve endless confusions for two
>>>>> years doesn't seem like a happy future to me. I see the Python
>>>>> community fighting the same issue since they broke compatibility
>>>>> between versions 2 and 3. I'd like to see us learn from those mistakes
>>>>> and do better.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that a discussion would have been better than a vote. I was
>>>>> under the mistaken impression that there is a consensus on the matter.
>>>>> I renamed the thread to make it clear that we are interested in
>>>>> hearing opinions from the rest of the community on this subject.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bike-sheddingly yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gwen Shapira
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Arvind Prabhakar <arvind@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks for the detailed pointers Gwen. I understand your concerns
better
>>>>>> now. My understanding from these threads as well as what you have
>>>> described
>>>>>> is that the confusion you refer to stems from the fact that Sqoop2
is
>>>> not
>>>>>> at feature parity with Sqoop(1) yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will be great to *discuss* what are the various ways to address
this
>>>> and
>>>>>> then call a vote to decide upon the approach to use. Some other
>>>> approaches
>>>>>> that I can suggest are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Calling Sqoop1 explicitly as "stable" in our downloads section,
or
>>>> even
>>>>>> within the release label. So instead of Sqoop-1.4.5, it would be
>>>>>> Sqoop-1.4.5-stable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Alternatively calling Sqoop2 explicitly "alpha", "beta" or
>>>>>> "experimental". Eg - Sqoop-1.99.4 would become Sqoop-1.99.4-beta.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Or perhaps a combination of both of these.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. Plus good UI messaging that clearly outlines the critical differences
>>>>>> between these to products.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I do not believe that having a code name will solve the
>>>> issue
>>>>>> at hand, and may even make it worse. If the motivation is to call
out
>>>>>> Sqoop2 as something "not-Sqoop", then perhaps we should discuss the
>>>>>> viability of this branch effort. If we conclude that it is not going
to
>>>>>> progress any further, we could call a vote on discontinuing this
effort
>>>> and
>>>>>> instead focusing on the main Sqoop1 branch alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope you understand my point of view on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Arvind Prabhakar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Gwen Shapira <gshapira@cloudera.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Arvind,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here are few more threads from the last month where we had to
explain
>>>>>>> Sqoop2 status or explain that you can't use "sqoop import" with
>>>>>>> Sqoop2, etc:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/sqoop-user/201407.mbox/%3CCA%2BP7NPNTFuPYqf74M5OFw4e9xKZm2ns%3DZ0ydkkuJ06Jcg31hnw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/sqoop-user/201407.mbox/%3CCAAJ8D%3D9Ho%3DYH7jdavNAb1gwz19Z5dapmS98yR71KmM5LsjCEVw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/sqoop-user/201407.mbox/%3CCAPwc21YtdgAm9jO3%2Bs0asBZ2JkG%3DVCp5PLpkO5xQuuBPKQGuTw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/sqoop-user/201406.mbox/%3CCAOrS3pxWuxL1X9Sb816N_o1Jd==gs9Ww6UjE2PO+FPaw7VHw1Q@mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In addition, I noticed the problem when talking to users in
>>>>>>> conferences, customers, members of support team, etc (not to
mention
>>>>>>> that I got confused personally when I started out.)
>>>>>>> I didn't bring much evidence in my first email because I thought
there
>>>>>>> was a wide consensus about the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have several goals with the code-name:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * We need to remove the impression that the new version is like
Sqoop
>>>>>>> only better. It is only somewhat like Sqoop and will not be strictly
>>>>>>> better for many months yet.
>>>>>>> * We need to clarify that this project is not even close to production
>>>>>>> quality.
>>>>>>> * We need to make it easy for us to quickly figure out which
version
>>>>>>> the user is talking about. We also need to make it easy for the
users
>>>>>>> to describe what they are using.
>>>>>>> * We want to have fun :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the name Pelican Project will help with all goals:
>>>>>>> - It is clearly not the same as Sqoop. So there's no existing
>>>>>>> expectations on what will be supported.
>>>>>>> - It is a "Project" and not a product yet.
>>>>>>> - Sqoop and Pelican don't look or sound similar. No one can expect
to
>>>>>>> use Sqoop by running "pelican-shell" or to use Pelican by calling
>>>>>>> "sqoop import".
>>>>>>> - And a cute mascot will make every future presentation and blog
post
>>>>>>> on the topic much more fun.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do bring up good points of concern:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a) Existing releases: I disagree code-names for in-progress
>>>>>>> development cause too much confusion. They seem fairly common
in the
>>>>>>> software world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> http://royal.pingdom.com/2010/05/27/the-developer-obsession-with-code-names-114-interesting-examples/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b) "could impact the reproducibility of previous release builds
which
>>>>>>> is not very good for the project."
>>>>>>> This sounds fairly serious. Can you elaborate what you mean by
>>>>>>> reproducibility of release build?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gwen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Arvind Prabhakar <arvind@apache.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Gwen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Other than the recent thread [1] on our user list, is there
any other
>>>>>>>> precedent regarding the confusion this issue has caused?
If so, I
>>>> would
>>>>>>>> appreciate if you could point it out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personally, I do agree that we ought to have a better mechanism
to
>>>>>>>> communicate the completeness (or incompleteness) of a release
in
>>>> order to
>>>>>>>> ensure the users understand what benefits or drawbacks they
may get.
>>>>>>>> Incidentally, this was the primary reason for numbering the
Sqoop2
>>>>>>> release
>>>>>>>> as 1.99.x, thereby indicating that the release is not quite
2.0 yet,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> seems to be not working as well as expected.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One traditional way to alleviate this issue would be to label
the
>>>> release
>>>>>>>> alpha/beta etc. I prefer doing that instead of putting a
code name for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> release for a couple of reasons - a) we have already made
releases of
>>>>>>>> Sqoop2 with the previous versioning scheme and hence changing
the name
>>>>>>>> could cause more confusion; and b) renaming the branches
to the new
>>>> name
>>>>>>>> could impact the reproducibility of previous release builds
which is
>>>> not
>>>>>>>> very good for the project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another alternative to consider would be to have very clear
messaging
>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the user-interface of Sqoop2 that it is still work in progress
and not
>>>>>>>> considered at par with Sqoop1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] http://s.apache.org/TvD
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Arvind Prabhakar
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Venkat Ranganathan <
>>>>>>>> vranganathan@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1 for Pelican.   But documentation should not be called
The Pelican
>>>>>>> Brief
>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Venkat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 8:12 PM, Abraham Elmahrek <abe@cloudera.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> There's something about schlep (or schlepper) that
I'm having
>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>> resisting... but... +1 to Pelican.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jarek Jarcec Cecho
<
>>>>>>> jarcec@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I’m obviously biased, but +1 to Pelican.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jarcec
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:06 PM, Martin, Nick <NiMartin@pssd.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 Pelican
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Gwen Shapira [mailto:gshapira@cloudera.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:51 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@sqoop.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Code name for Sqoop 2 (please vote!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As you may have noticed on the user list,
Sqoop2 confuses the hell
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>> of everyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Part of the problem is the name - Sqoop2
sounds newer and
>>>> therefore
>>>>>>>>>>> better. People expect better quality and more
features - which we
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> deliver :(
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, I propose finding Sqoop2 a project
code name. This way
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> will sound experimental and will not have the
number "2" next to
>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> We can use the code name to mark the branches
in the repo, the
>>>>>>>>>>> documentation, the Hue frontend, etc. This will
prevent confusion
>>>> as
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> name Sqoop will go back to refer to just one
project, and one that
>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggested names:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Pelican (Based on the animal on O'Reilly's
Sqoop book)
>>>>>>> Project
>>>>>>>>>>> Schlep (Yiddish for "moving heavy package")
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Friends, contributors, committers and PMC
members - please respond
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> either:
>>>>>>>>>>>> * Vote (+1) on one of the names above
>>>>>>>>>>>> * Your own suggestion
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We'll be looking to close the vote by August
1st (Next week).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gwen
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>> entity to
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>>>>>>> reader
>>>>>>>>> of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
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>>>> notified
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>>>>>>>>> any printing, copying, dissemination, distribution, disclosure
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>>>>>>>>> forwarding of this communication is strictly prohibited.
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>>>>>>>>> received this communication in error, please contact
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>

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