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From Jay sissom <jsis...@toybox.uits.indiana.edu>
Subject Re: App Design
Date Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:26:47 GMT
I read the list this morning and read 20 messages about too much traffic 
and then read 30+ messages that were either labelled OT (which I assume 
stands for off-topic) and messages like this, which are interesting but 
have absolutely nothing to do with Struts.  This isn't a poolman, 
expresso, EJB list, this is a Struts list.  Talking about the others where 
they deal with Struts is OK.  If people think there is too much traffic on 
this list, they can stop discussing off-topic things.  I bet the traffic 
would go down 25%.

My 2 cents
Jay


On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Keith wrote:

> rage on! I want java to survive .net.
> If people use too much technology or over eloborate designs, their systems get
> expensive to write & hard to maintain & then it looks like java is not good.
> When I see the posts by people using frames I am pleased I avoid them.
> One of my aims is to write systems that a beginner can read & a junior can
> maintain.
> 
> As for EJB's - oops I may start to rant!
> I write a business logic class to a standard design pattern, it can be called
> from a Swing app or a struts Action.
> If I want to call it from a remote server or it needs to participate in a
> distributed transaction it should take only a few hours to write
> a wrapper around it to make it an EJB session bean. It needs to receive/return
> it's parameters as value objects (to save repeated calls acoss the network).
> But like 98% of systems I have no such requirement - so no EJB's - for now.
> So what's the big deal about them - can't most of us can remain blissfully
> ignorant of them? 
> 
> Personally I'd like to see that b^%&$€ PetStore written in 3 ways - 
> 1 - As a pet store would actually want it (Small scale architecture)
> 2 - Mid scale
> 3 - Monster scale.
> And if we are really lucky No 1 write run nearly as fast as the .net version!!
> 
> --- stf <s.frank@vierundsechzig.de> wrote:
> > ok, the link is rather old, and maybe also a bit dogmatic: But most of it
> > still holds true. Apart from the usability-hassles described in the link, in
> > my experience you can add a bunch of problems you get when you try to
> > generate your frames programmatically (the simplest one being the
> > requirement to generate a link to the preceding "page"(whatever that means
> > when you use frames) that also had to work when javascript is deactivated -
> > the history.back() at last works halfway consistent for almost all browsers,
> > but it took them a while...) - then you have the problem with deep-links
> > into the site (you almost always end up with an xml-file that contains the
> > complete site-layout and from which you can generate right frameset - almost
> > always buggy and hard to maintain...), synching data in different frames
> > (using an equally bad mixture of javascript/sevlet-code...). There are some
> > applications out there which almost all have to something with configuration
> > (configuring a new car, a new pc and so on) which make heavy use of
> > javascript and  frames to maintain the state of the configuration: Although
> > i agree that there almost always a whole  lot of data flows from and to the
> > browser, which can/should be cached in frames, in reality these
> > configrurators almost always seem to be crashing short before purchasing
> > your new car, which took you about an hour to configure...
> > 
> > so, no, i don't see any real reason for using frames for other things than
> > doing some static designer-portfolio-pages (but i think they are currently
> > overusing flash for this purpose...)
> > 
> > ps: excuse me for this elaborate rage, but i have been burnt before in
> > projects where i was forced to use frames....
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Keith" <keithbaconstruts@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 10:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: App Design
> > 
> > 
> > >
> > > Is there a good argument for using frames? It needs to be good, they
> > obviously
> > > are problematic to use.
> > > Beware the page linked to below is dated Dec. 1996 - most of what's in it
> > is
> > > obsolete!
> > >
> > > --- stf <s.frank@vierundsechzig.de> wrote:
> > > > frames suck: I don't think it's a good idea to separate your page-flow
> > onto
> > > > two different layers, one being the javscript/frame-constellation, the
> > other
> > > > the struts config-files. What exactly are you trying to achive? If you
> > just
> > > > want to reuse your navigation, then go for some kind of
> > template-engine(e.g.
> > > > tiles, even simple, maybe parametrized includes will be better than
> > > > frames..) - if you have a designer, who insists, that frames are more
> > > > "usable" or just look better, have him read this:
> > > > http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html - it's already so old that i
> > > > thought, everybody knows it by now ;)
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <Mark_Glatzer@Instinet.com>
> > > > To: <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:10 PM
> > > > Subject: App Design
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >              I am thinking of structuring an application as follows,
> > and
> > > > > would appreciate any advice and ideas of how to do this:
> > > > >
> > > > > There will be two frames.  First is a navigation frame where the
user
> > > > > presses a button to determine the JSP that is loaded into the second
> > > > frame.
> > > > > Each possible JSP for the second frame will have form.  If a user
is
> > > > > entering data into the form, and then presses a button on the
> > navigation
> > > > > frame to go to a different jsp/form,  I want to save the partially
> > entered
> > > > > form data from the page the user is leaving.  Then when the user
goes
> > back
> > > > > to the first page they can continue where they left off.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been prototyping an idea; the navigation frame uses JavaScript
> > to
> > > > > submit the form and redirect the old page to the new desired page.
 So
> > far
> > > > > I have accomplished that when the form is submitted the action does
> > not
> > > > > really do anything, so the form data is saved in the bean.  But how
do
> > I
> > > > > accomplish the redirect?
> > > > >
> > > > > Any ideas are greatly appreciated.
> > > > > Mark Glatzer
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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