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From "Michael Delamere" <h...@michael-delamere.de>
Subject Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
Date Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:00:25 GMT
I think you´re right.  You should hear the conversations that we are having
at work currently.  We are in the middle of planing a new project and we are
desperately trying to thnik of every possible thing that could go wrong!
What if at some stage.... or have you thought of that.... !

It´s driving me nuts because I really want it to be a success.  The problem
is though that even if we managed to think of every conceivable thing that
could go wrong, we still have to take time and resources into account.  I
would love to spend 1 year planning the whole god damn thing (even then I
couldn´t guarantee anything ;-) ) and then create the perfect project.
Dream on.

I must admit though that thanks to frameworks like struts, it becomes
slightly easier because when you discuss the view you say.... yeah...
struts.... and the controller... yeah struts... :-) .

As you may have read in the thread that I started "Architecture advice", the
service layer is driving me slightly nuts because if that isn´t right
then...... it probably means trouble at some point.

I hope I´m not going to get into trouble for misusing this thread with
dreams of a perfect project ;-)!  I think you´re right though in saying that
more than two formats may be needed eventually but that´s another story....
(now anyway :-) ).

Regards,

Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig R. McClanahan" <craigmcc@apache.org>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development


>
>
> On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Michael Delamere wrote:
>
> > Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:09:08 +0200
> > From: Michael Delamere <home@michael-delamere.de>
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> > I agree entirely!  There are many advantages of doing it the way you
are.
> > For us however it would be a big step and the time certainly isn´t
there!
> >
> > Then again, currently there is no need for us to generate so many
differnet
> > types of views at present.
> > WAP and WEB at the most....
> >
>
> You might be amused at one of my personal experiences that caused the
> creatoin of Struts in the first place ...
>
> My job was to take a US-based application and make it available, on the
> web, in Europe.  Obviously, using American English wasn't going to cut it,
> so we agreed to start in "just" four languages.  Lacking anything like
> Struts, I had to do it the old fashioned way -- four copies of each page
> :-).  Clumsy, but maintainable (if only barely).
>
> Maintainable, that is, until four became eight, then twelve, then ... and
> now you know where tags like <bean:message> come from!  :-)
>
> The moral of the story -- requirements always change over time, and they
> always seem to get bigger rather than smaller.  I wouldn't believe for a
> minute that you will only need two formats now and forever more ... unless
> they kill the project, which is a whole *different* problem :-).
>
> > Michael
>
> Craig
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jacob Hookom" <hookomjj@uwec.edu>
> > To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:56 PM
> > Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> >
> >
> > > Basically, it was a strict requirement of the system, and this MVC2 is
> > > not implemented throughout the site in this manner, primarily for
> > > reporting features.
> > >
> > > Do the math, either generate 40 jsps that spit out HTML, then another
40
> > > for WML, then another 40 for PDF (120 JSPs), or just have a single set
> > > of 40 JSPs that output XML and then 3 stylesheets.  It really depends
on
> > > the application and how strict the design templates are across your
> > > pages.  It may not be the best idea if for each XML JSP, you need to
> > > generate a set of 3 stylesheets.
> > >
> > > In addition, we are using the code I wrote that uses XSLTC to compile
> > > the XSL documents for faster transformation which makes this structure
a
> > > lot more viable.  You might want to look at cocoon as a much larger
> > > basis of this MVC2 pattern that has its own optimizations.
> > >
> > > Jacob Hookom
> > > Comprehensive Computer Science
> > > University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:42 PM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > >
> > > I really like your idea but how long did it take for everyone involved
> > > to
> > > adapt to this approach?
> > > Surely it must take some time until efficiency comes back into the
flow
> > > of
> > > things.  Then again, I suppose when it does, everything becomes much
> > > easier.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jacob Hookom" <hookomjj@uwec.edu>
> > > To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:33 PM
> > > Subject: RE: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am working on a big project for an insurance company and we are
> > > doing
> > > > everything in XML/XSLT.  That way, the programmers can write JSP's
or
> > > > Servlets that just generate XML data and then depending on who's
> > > making
> > > > the request, it formats the page as WML, PDF, or HTML.  That way the
> > > > designers can just come up with stylesheets and the programmers just
> > > > generate straight XML data.
> > > >
> > > > Jacob Hookom
> > > > Comprehensive Computer Science
> > > > University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Michael Delamere [mailto:home@michael-delamere.de]
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:23 PM
> > > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > > >
> > > > This may not be ideal but the way we do it is that the designers
give
> > > us
> > > > their static content (html pages) and we feed it into the
> > > jsps/velocity
> > > > templates.
> > > >
> > > > That way we have more control over the dynamic elements in the
webpage
> > > > and
> > > > they can play and fiddle with their html code as much as they like
> > > :-).
> > > >
> > > > Regards Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Greg Hess" <ghess@wrappedapps.com>
> > > > To: "Struts Mail List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:10 PM
> > > > Subject: uncoupling Web Design/Web Development
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have designed a web application that is dependant on a work
flow,
> > > > the
> > > > user
> > > > > interface is constructed by Web Designers and the server side is
> > > done
> > > > by
> > > > Web
> > > > > Developers. The web designers are now comfortable using the struts
> > > > tags
> > > > and
> > > > > so on but they hate the fact that they have to follow the work
flow
> > > in
> > > > order
> > > > > to see changes on a specific page. They would like to be able to
> > > view
> > > > a
> > > > page
> > > > > directly, out side the work flow in order to perform the web
design.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not sure how I should facilitate this or if I should?
> > > > >
> > > > > Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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