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From <Greg.Red...@alltel.com>
Subject RE: Struts Productivity Survey
Date Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:48:56 GMT
Well, the question was somewhat, but not entirely hypothetical.  The 50 is probably more like
30.  The problem is really another "my framework is better than yours" debate and we're pushing
to use a Struts-based framework going forward instead of a home-grown.  One of my tasks is
to quantify how long it will take developers to get up to speed on Struts to estimate the
cost of moving over.

I learned Java, JSP/Servlets, and Struts pretty much all at the same time, and it clicked
easily for me.  But I learn new things easily and am not intimidated by new things.  Others
seem to have had varying levels of difficulty picking it up.  The team that I worked on back
then had little trouble with it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haseltine, Celeste [mailto:CHaseltine@magticket.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 10:04 AM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: Struts Productivity Survey
> 
> 
> Greg, 
> 
> Wow, I don't envy your assignment.  There is one thing that I 
> have learned
> over the years as both a developer and project manager, 
> people learn at
> different rates, and pick up new skills very differently.
> 
> In the case of the people who only know C++, the transition 
> to Java will not
> be difficult.  If they have had no exposure to HTML and web 
> development,
> then the transition to JSP's will take them a little longer.  
> I've know some
> really good low level C++ programmers who just cannot get the 
> hang of HTML,
> much less the tag library underlying struts.  These guys are 
> better suited
> for the server side and EJB side of development.
> 
> As for the VB programmer, your job is going to much more 
> difficult.  Many of
> the VB programmers I have meet over the past 2 years have had 
> no exposure or
> training in Object Oriented Programming (OO).  Many have 
> moved to VB from
> mainframe jobs that they started back in the 70's and 80's.  
> For those on
> your staff who have had exposure to C++ in college, the move 
> to Java will
> probably be easier than for those on your staff you have come from a
> mainframe background.
> 
> As to Struts, JSP's and the tag libraries.  You are looking 
> at training
> these people in ALL three of these concepts/technology.  I 
> would strongly
> suggest that you start out your training class in JSP's using 
> the Model 1
> concept the first few days, and then introduce Struts and the JSP tag
> libraries for the duration of the training course.
> 
> In all, my experience in training people in a combination of 
> on the job and
> classes has been as follows:
> 
> For those with heavy C++ experience, moving to 
> Java/JSP/Servlets/HMTL took
> about month before these people were productive.
> 
> For those with some exposure to C++ and OO, but no work 
> experience, it took
> about 2 months for these people to be productive.
> 
> For those with no exposure to C++ and OO (mainframe 
> background), it took
> anywhere from 4 months to 9 months before these people were 
> really useful
> and productive in the work environment.  A lot depended on 
> the attitude of
> the person, and their willingness to learn new programming 
> skills AND new
> programming/software concepts, particularly OO.  If you can 
> get over the
> hurdle of the OO concepts, then you are 2/3 of the way there.
> 
> If you add struts and HTML to the equation, I would add an 
> extra 2 to 4
> weeks, before the staff is really productive and useful in the work
> environment.  
> 
> Keep in mind again that people learn at different rates, and 
> that they learn
> in different ways.  The approach you take to exposing and 
> training these
> people may not work for the entire group, and you may need to 
> take extra
> time and try different approaches with some in the group.
> 
> Good luck, this is one assignment that I don't envy you on.  
> 
> Celeste
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg.Reddin@alltel.com [mailto:Greg.Reddin@alltel.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 9:40 AM
> To: struts-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Struts Productivity Survey
> 
> 
> Ok, so let me pose it a different way.  Put yourself in this position:
> 
> You're a consultant or an architect who has been tasked with 
> building a
> Struts application with 100 screens.  You're actually migrating an
> application which was originally written as a fat client app 
> in VB and the
> server was written in C++.
> 
> You have about 50 developers who know VB and C++ pretty well. 
>  Some of them
> know Java/JSP/Servlets very well.  Some of them know it very 
> little.  None
> of them know Struts.
> 
> Your job is to estimate the cost of getting these folks up to speed on
> Struts.  You already have the application design.  THere's 
> going to be a
> thin business layer called by the Action classes that will 
> use EJB session
> beans to provide application functionality.  Fairly simple.  
> You have to
> train these people to use Struts, create actions and pages, 
> and write the
> web-tier business layer.  Somebody else is doing the EJB stuff.
> 
> How do you estimate that cost?
> How long do you think it will take for these various 
> developers to write
> their first business function?
> How long to do the next one, etc?
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andreas Mack [mailto:vasquez@mediales.net]
> > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:34 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Struts Productivity Survey
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 2003-01-10 at 07:57, Rick Reumann wrote:
> > 
> > > easier. I think it's really going be difficult to get an 
> > accurate feel
> > > for how long it takes people to get 'up to speed' with 
> > struts since I
> > > think it's much easier now for new developers to learn 
> > struts simply due
> > > to the books and better documentation available.
> > 
> > I agree 100%. I looked at Struts for the first time in April 
> > 2001 mainly
> > for the forms stuff, really wanting to use it. I've read 
> the UserGuide
> > and said "What is he talking about!?" Half a year later, with a real
> > project at hand it went much faster, using the /example stuff. Back
> > then there were no DynaForms, no Tiles, no Nested, all the 
> stuff that
> > makes things much easier now. The pages that are now the Taglib API
> > Reference were the best resources back then.
> > 
> > Greets,
> > Andreas.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Andreas Mack <vasquez@mediales.net>
> > mediales. GmbH
> > 
> > 
> > --
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> > 
> 
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