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From "Rabih Yazbeck" <rabli...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject RE: Does a degree matter?
Date Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:30:41 GMT
Well, Craig is almost right for American companies and American education... I have worked
in four continents and studied also in four continents.. each place require different skills
and have different view about education... 

The only thing I found in common is the 'scientific logic' and the 'passion' for computer
science.. Computer Science degree is very important outside the US.. you do just like me..
I have studied civil engineering, so they assure for them that I have the 'scientific logic',
but no computer science background.. so I went and I had master degree in computer science..
in England.. and that's it.. they can't complain anymore.. it will work anywhere on this planet..
but be sure that degree matters to start your career.. 

- Rabih

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:alexj@freesurf.ch]
> Sent: 31 March 2003 17:04
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> 
> that's exactly the same behaviour in switzerland if you do university
> (only theory and only a few pratic)
> 
> the degree I do is a special one with less theory and more pratic (
> the second year we have to do 5 projects :
> 
> -1 to integrate oriented object programming
>       I had choose accessing accross network computer ressource.
>       (I used Eiffel)
> 
> -1 to integrate database programming
>       I had choose to implement a framework for security management,
>       for any database driven application.
>       (I used Kylix and Postresql)
> 
> -1 for mathematical use (vectorial,matricial math for 2d programming)
>      (java and my own math lib)
> 
> -1 for learning working in group
>     (I only have done data modeling)
> 
> -1 for diploma
>      (I choose an information system to manage a
> school,student,prof,activity etc..)
>      (java /struts/swing)
> 
> I hate theory I like pratic ;)
> 
> --
> Alexandre Jaquet
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel H. F. e Silva" <dhfs@yahoo.com>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> >   Just my two cents.
> >
> >   Craig's viewpoint is good for american-like degrees. But there are
> many
> different
> > education systems all over the world.
> >   For example, in my country (Brazil), Comp Sci bachelor's degree from
> public universities don't
> > teach nothing more than old theory. We study Automata theory, Graph
> theory, Calculus, Algebra,
> > Physics, Statistics and Algorithms as course basis and we have
> specialized
> disciplines where we
> > study more specific theory like: DataBases theory, Operating Systems
> theory, Programming Language
> > theory, Compilers theory, Data transmission, Computer Networks, Computer
> Networks Management,
> > Artificial Intelligence, Functional programming, Logic programming,
> Object-Oriented programming,
> > Object-Oriented analysis, Project management, etc.
> >   And at my university (University of Brasilia) we have to take some
> optional (not so much)
> > courses to get our degree. They are: Management, Accounting, Economics,
> Sports, Political science,
> > Philosophy, English, Operational research, Law science etc.
> >   Our professors don't teach programming languages like Java, C, Pascal,
> Lisp, Prolog, FORTRAN.
> > They delegate this task to students.
> >   I think it is a hard course but it's worth it.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >   Daniel.
> >
> > --- apachep2 <apachep2@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Sorry, I am not intended to offend any one subscribed to this list. I
> > > just can't be more agreed with Craig's view. BTW, I was actually
> > > forwarding this email to my boss but accidentally click the Reply.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: apachep2 [mailto:apachep2@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: March 31, 2003 9:57 AM
> > > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > > Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > > This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than
> others.
> > > No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:craigmcc@apache.org]
> > > Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
> > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > > > From: Arron Bates <struts-user@keyboardmonkey.com>
> > > > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > To: Struts Users Mailing List <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> > > >
> > > > Brandon,
> > > >
> > > > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would
> hazard
> > > offering
> > > > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your
> time.
> > > By
> > > > education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First
> job
> > > was web
> > > > design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places
> not
> > > take me
> > > > on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
> > > >
> > >
> > > My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired
> over
> > > the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp
> > > Sci
> > > degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some
> field
> > > that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> > > employers.
> > >
> > > Why?  A couple of reasons:
> > >
> > > * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
> > >   particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the
> expense
> > >   of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
> > >   technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
> > >   obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
> > >   bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my
> viewpoint)
> > >   is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
> > >   new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
> > >   of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
> > >   slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
> > >   for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
> > >   and so on.
> > >
> > > * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the
> technical
> > >   things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
> > >   would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
> > >   Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-
> commerce
> > >   systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
> > >   principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
> > >   systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
> > >   have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
> > >   building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
> > >   slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?
> > >
> > > It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
> > > degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
> > > Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart
> > > from
> > > everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in
> those
> > > days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible
> > > for
> > > the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having
> to
> > > be
> > > trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
> > > programmer :-).
> > >
> > > If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
> > > time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
> > > suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a
> Comp
> > > Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name
> of
> > > the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else
> out
> > > there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
> > > world than just computers and web apps :-).
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
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> >
> 
> 
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