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From "Andrew Hill" <>
Subject RE: Struts 1.1
Date Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:07:34 GMT
I know I'm not going to convince you of their decision, but at least our
company lets us use open source software in development.  Lots of
companies don't even have that freedom.

Pity more companies arent like that.
I rather like the idea of potential competitors falling by the wayside
becuase they are too busy reinventing wheels(*) to stay competitive with us!


(* = no thats not a carrier reference!)

Actually theres been a fair bit of discussion on the failings of the current
release process over in the struts-dev list. Worth digging up the archive to
have a read.

-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: Monday, 2 June 2003 22:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List;
Subject: RE: Struts 1.1

OK, let's look at it another way.  If Struts 1.1 is ready for prime time,
why don't the authors trust it enough to release it?  If the authors don't
trust it enough to give it their stamp of approval (bugs or no bugs), why
should our company?

I know I'm not going to convince you of their decision, but at least our
company lets us use open source software in development.  Lots of
companies don't even have that freedom.  I think that using only software
that is actually released isn't a bad compromise.  It hasn't been a
problem for 95% of the code we've wanted to use.  There have only been two
exceptions: Struts and JDOM.  So, my question was, why do they think the
code isn't good enough for a release?  Now it seems that Struts 1.1 is
ready, some other component isn't ready.  If that's the case, can that
component be removed, then added in a 1.2 release?  If it's another jar,
it's extremely simple to add a jar when it's ready.

On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Steve Raeburn wrote:

> Jay,
> I know it's not your fault, but I can't understand why companies insist on
> waiting for the "official" release. Like that's going to magically mean
> there are no bugs in it.
> If your company had written some software, say a web-application
> in-house, would they a) wait for some external source to give the software
> stamp of approval or b) use normal in-house testing procedures to verify
> that it works well enough for you to trust it in your production
> applications?
> Encourage the decision makers to think of it as in-house code. You still
> have to verify it works for you, but the hourly rate to your company for
> developers was $0. Nada. Zilch. Free. It's just a big pool of free code,
> written by some damn good programmers, that they don't have to pay for.
> getting a consulting firm to quote to develop your own custom framework
> that's as powerful as Struts. It's gonna hurt =:-(
> To put it another way, if you told your boss that you had several top
> Java developers and hundreds (thousands?) of testers who were all willing
> come and work for you for free, would he really turn that down?
> In the time that you have been waiting for the 1.1 release, seven books
> been written *and* you've probably wasted a whole lot of man-hours
> reinventing framework code that is *less* well written and tested that the
> "development" code in Struts. (No disrespect intended to you and your
> but a lot of people have been through this code base with a fine-toothed
> comb!) And that's a real cost, as opposed to an perceived risk.
> And the end of the day, the more people that are reviewing the code and
> using the software for real, the more bugs will have already been found
> the less risk there will be in using it. I would guess that Struts has
> reviewed more thoroughly than *any* in-house software project and probably
> more than most commercial products. And if you do come across a bug then
> can easily ask for help, or fix it yourself. Have you ever tried calling
> large Redmond based companies and asking them to send over their source
> because you want to track down a bug?
> There has been a delay in releasing 1.1, but that's largely because it's
> a *minor* upgrade from 1.0, but a biggy. There probably should have been
> lots of little 1.x releases. But there weren't and here we are.
> Finally, to answer your question. I believe the only outstanding issue is
> dependency on the commons fileupload component that is nearly ready and
> the Struts release is planned to be "real soon now" ;-)
> Steve
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Graham []
> > Sent: June 1, 2003 4:39 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Struts 1.1
> >
> >
> > Struts RC 2 should be coming out this week.  After that, people
> > will have a
> > chance to test their apps with it and we'll incorporate any show
> > bug fixes.  Struts 1.1 final is not far off after that :-).
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > >I'm not going to ask when Struts 1.1 will be released because I know
> > >stock answer.  I'm going to ask what we need to do to get it released
> > >soon as possible?
> > >
> > >Our company has a policy of not using software that hasn't had a final
> > >release, therefore we've been stuck with Struts 1.0.  We can't switch
> > >1.1 in development, because we don't know how many months (or years) it
> > >will be before it's done.  We can't hold up our production dates
> > >of Struts 1.1.
> > >
> > >So, my question is, what exactly are we waiting for for the Struts 1.1
> > >release?  What can we do to get it there as soon as possible?  We'd be
> > >willing to put some time into it to get it released.  Using it in our
> > >production applications is out of the question though.
> > >
> > >I know this is a little harsh, but I have lost count of how long we've
> > >been waiting.  At least 7 Struts books have been released since
> > Struts 1.1
> > >beta was released. (it's funny that all of them say that 1.1 will be
> > >once the book is in print. :)  Other web frameworks have gone
> > from nothing
> > >to having released software during the beta of 1.1.  I want quality
> > >software as much as the next guy, but was Struts 1.0 so poorly designed
> > >that it takes so long to come out with the next MINOR version?
> > >
> > >OK, flame away, but I hope we can get someone tell us exactly
> > what we need
> > >to do to stop the hold up and get 1.1 released.  Please let us know.
> > >
> > >Thanks
> > >Jay
> > >
> > >
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