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From Edgar Dollin <Ed...@BLUE-MOOSE.NET>
Subject RE: what the webwork guys say about struts
Date Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:26:21 GMT
That would be like the Lutherans and the Episcopalians joining up.

Edgar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Butt, Dudley [mailto:dbutt@metropolitan.co.za] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:18 AM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: what the webwork guys say about struts
> 
> 
> why dont the struts guys and the WW guys join up? 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Jasnowski [mailto:mjasnows@bea.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:22 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List; dgraham@apache.org
> Subject: RE: what the webwork guys say about struts
> 
> 
> I thought the use of Interceptors was interesting iN WW2, 
> given the somewhat recent discussions about a composable 
> request processor on struts-dev.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham [mailto:grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:44 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: what the webwork guys say about struts
> 
> 
> --- Andrew Hill <andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com> wrote:
> > <snip src="wiki.opensymphony.com">
> > WebWorks pros include being a smaller, simpler framework, 
> not having 
> > to build ActionForm beans,
> 
> DynaActionForms anyone?
> 
> > making it very simple to test your Actions,
> > having
> > multiple well-supported view technologies, simpler views 
> with less JSP 
> > tags and a more powerful expression language,
> 
> Who cares?  IMO, JSTL has the best Java expression language 
> and implementing anything further in a non-standard framework 
> is a waste of time.
> 
> > not having to make your Actions
> > thread-safe,
> 
> You can override one method in the RequestProcessor to create 
> a new Action on each request so they don't have to be thread safe.
> 
> > not having your Actions tied to the web
> 
> Struts 2 is likely to be uncoupled from the Servlet API to 
> allow use in Portals but we'll see...
> 
> The only advantage I see in WebWork is that Actions and 
> ActionForms are one idea/class but JSF allows this as well.
> 
> I don't know enough about WebWork to critique it but it's 
> disappointing when people get the facts wrong about Struts 
> when comparing the two.
> 
> David
> 
> > and not being part
> > of
> > Jakarta J. WebWork2 also adds many new features such as 
> Interceptors, 
> > packages, IoC, etc. WebWorks cons include being a smaller project 
> > with fewer books and less tool support, having less 
> standards support 
> > for specs like JSTL and JSF, and not being part of Jakarta
> > </snip>
> >
> > Fair enough to a point, but Id definately disagree about struts not 
> > providing good support for using other views. There is nothing in 
> > struts that specifically makes it hard to support other view 
> > technologies - the taglibs that come with struts are purely a 
> > convienience for the majority who use JSP (theres a good 
> argument to 
> > make them a seperate download imho) - but
> > theres nothing anything to stop you using other things. 
> Many people use
> > velocity with struts - its a good fit from what I hear, and 
> you could
> > use
> > pretty much any other technology too so long as that 
> technology doesnt
> > depend on some proprietary framework to be used with it (which would
> > affect
> > WW also). All the struts config objects are accessible from 
> the servlet
> > context and there are even toolkits for technologies such 
> as velocity...
> > I
> > personally use my own homebrew rendering technology (which 
> basically is
> > just
> > leveraging DOM and xhtml) and found that struts didnt get 
> in the way and
> > indeed meshed nicely in many cases.
> >
> > What I saw in the good 2 minutes or so I looked at WW just now that 
> > _did_ get me excited was the idea of it making it much easier to 
> > seperate classes
> > from dependancies on the servlet api thus becoming easier 
> to test. One
> > can
> > always test struts with things like StrutsTestCase or 
> cactus doing mock
> > object or in container tests, but learning how is a 
> daunting task, which
> > Id
> > imagine has put off many people from trying. (I know Ive 
> never bothered
> > to
> > work out how to do it - but hey, my codes so good it doesnt 
> need testing
> > right? ;->) If it could easily test my stuff in good old Junit using
> > j2se...
> > that would be sweet mate...
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> > The mapping from HTTP Request to Actions is really 
> cohesive. You have 
> > a form with fields, you have an action with corresponding fields. 
> > </snip>
> >
> > Yes - theres a lot to be said for the idea of merging the 
> actionform 
> > and the action and instantiating a new instance for each 
> request (or 
> > reusing one from the session). Ive never fully grokked why 
> struts was 
> > so keen to use the
> > singleton pattern for actions. Tis true that servlets do this - and
> > actions
> > resemble servlets (after all they are in the end just the bit of the
> > ActionServlet that does the specific work!) , but I and 
> others have oft
> > debated the merits of relaxing the threadsafety rule on actions and
> > instantiating new ones each time - and merging the 
> actionform into the
> > same
> > object so that you have a sort of 'component' perhaps 
> follows on from
> > this?
> >
> > hmmm... Can anyone think of some good reasons not to make Action an 
> > interface?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Butt, Dudley [mailto:dbutt@metropolitan.co.za]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:08
> > To: struts-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Subject: what the webwork guys say about struts
> >
> >
> > BEOW IS AS IS, PASTED FROM WW forum: 
> > =====================================
> >
> > Check out the docs on the Wiki (http://wiki.opensymphony.com), 
> > especially
> >
> > 
> http://wiki.opensymphony.com/space/Migrating+from+Struts+1.0+to+WebWor
> > k+
> > 2 - migrating from Struts to WebWork2
> >
> > And the article I just posted:
> >
> > 
> http://wiki.opensymphony.com/space/Writeup+of+Mike%27s+Talk+at+TSS+on+
> > We
> > bWork2 which is a general overview of WebWork2.
> >
> > For your specific questions, WebWork is better than Struts 
> because it 
> > is a simpler framework, with less ties to the web and in 
> genral less 
> > useless contracts for your code to implement. Being less 
> coupled makes 
> > things easier to test, which is always better. With WebWork2, we've 
> > added some very powerful features. Check the docs I listed for the 
> > overview.
> >
> > For the view, you can use Velocity as well as JSP, FreeMarker, 
> > JasperReports, and XML/XSLT. Velocity and JSP are the most 
> common, and 
> > the best supported, but all are first class citizens in WW, unlike 
> > Stuts where anything but JSP is difficult.
> >
> >
> > ================================================================
> >
> > I use Webwork in my 'Enterprise Java' clases, largely because it is 
> > incredibly simple. One reason for this is it let's us deal JSP as a 
> > single presentation tier, which reduces the learning curve (and you 
> > can always move to something else at a later stage).
> >
> > The mapping from HTTP Request to Actions is really 
> cohesive. You have 
> > a form with fields, you have an action with corresponding 
> fields. Data 
> > gets populated and the Action is executed.
> >
> > It really is that simple to get started.
> >
> > Testing is really nice, you can run all your Actions through JUnit 
> > without being tied to the Web Container. This speeds 
> development time 
> > as you don't need to package and deploy every time you make 
> a change 
> > and it makes debugging much simpler.
> >
> > And WW2 rocks.
> >
> >
> ==============================================================
> =============
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> NOTICE: 
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> This message contains privileged and confidential information 
> intended 
> only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. 
> Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copy or other use of, or 
> taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or 
> entities other than the intended recipient, is prohibited. 
> 
> If you received this message in error, please notify the sender 
> immediately by e-mail, facsimile or telephone and thereafter 
> delete the 
> material from any computer. 
> 
> The New Africa Capital Group, its subsidiaries or associates do not 
> accept liability for any personal views expressed in this message.
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