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From "Andrew Hill" <andrew.david.h...@gridnode.com>
Subject RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet container?
Date Tue, 22 Jul 2003 03:26:53 GMT
<snip>
Struts is becoming kind of self
sufficient where everything is done through it even if it already can be
done through something else.  Its like a little container itself.
</snip>

There is a certain element of truth in that ;-)

...though your 'already can be done' is a little presumptuous - in most
cases struts provided the feature first and other implementations and ways
of doing it came later

-----Original Message-----
From: Ranko Bijelonic [mailto:rbijelonic@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 03:10
To: Struts Users Mailing List; dgraham@apache.org
Subject: RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet
container?




>You could certainly code each Action as a Servlet but it would take more
>work.

I'm not sure exactely how it would take more work (provided there were
Struts like utils writen one time).

>You've mentioned changing the Servlet spec several times and seem to be
>under the impression that it's easy to do.  Open source software has
>certain advantages over standards because it is easier to try new things.
>It's *much* easier to change Struts than to change any Java specification
>including Servlets.  But you should notice the huge influence OSS and
>Struts in particular has had over the standard technologies.  Struts
>directly contributed to JSF and JSTL with ideas and pressure to make the
>standards better than the Struts version.  IMO, that's a much more
>effective way of changing things for the better.

Yes, that is true.  We definitely benefited from Struts in many ways.  But
it just seems to be getting too encompasing. Now we have declarative
exception handling that is configured in struts-config.xml, and we have it
( a weaker version maybe) in web.xml.  Struts is becoming kind of self
sufficient where everything is done through it even if it already can be
done through something else.  Its like a little container itself.  But maybe
i'm just temporarily mad :).

ranko


>
> ranko
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Adam Levine [mailto:adam_l_levine@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 12:49 PM
> > To: struts-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet
> > container?
> >
> >
> > for my $0.02.
> >
> >    Using just pure servlet and base JSP, dealing with forms is not
> > intuitive
> > or clean.  You either rely on too much code in a JSP, or too much
> > reading
> > and parsing at the start of your servlets.  And, the development cycle
> > increases as your changes increase.  I find the Struts mode to be
> clean
> > and
> > simple.  Need to change a field, add a field.  Change one class (the
> > ActionForm, or not at all with a dynaform), modify the .jsp
> > presentation.
> > And then account for the field change in the business logic.  Combine
> it
> > with XDoclet, and you've got immediate Data/Value Objects that can be
> > generated from the ActionForm itself, ready to be passed back to your
> > EJB
> > level code (using CMP, you never have to account for the field in the
> > logic,
> > unless you're doing business level decisions).
> >    The mechanisms in place for detailing messages back to the user
> (ie,
> > ActionErrors) are very clean, easly integrated with field-specific
> > messages.
> >   Seamless integration with Java's i18n functionality.
> >
> > >>   I'm looking for the reasons why this would not be the case.
> >
> > Are you looking for where using the base Sevlet layer is more
> > advantageous
> > over using Struts? Or, are you looking for areas that Struts just
> > doesn't
> > handle, leaving a gaping hole?   Are you being persnickity, or is
> there
> > a
> > serious question/concern ?
> >
> > From: "Ranko Bijelonic" <rbijelonic@yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Subject: RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet
> > container?
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:38:22 -0400
> >
> >
> > Yes Struts does definitely solve many problems and make it easier.
> But
> > is
> > seems that it solves a lot of problems that are already solved.  I'm
> > looking
> > for the reasons why this would not be the case.  Thanks for the help,
> >
> > ranko
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sandeep Takhar [mailto:sandeep_takhar@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 11:21 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet
> > container?
> >
> >
> > I guess the main difference between what you mention
> > and struts is that you can use this stuff right away
> > for the app you want to build without modification.
> >
> > As long as you understand the concepts you can apply
> > them.  Similar to how you understand a servlet/filter
> > spec.  Now you have common problems solved.
> >
> > You don't have to code them or copy and paste from
> > somewhere.
> >
> > You also have the ability to auto-populate to lists
> > which is pretty neat.
> >
> > sandeep
> > --- Ranko Bijelonic <rbijelonic@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >  > > there's a lot of stuff it gives you out of the
> >  > box.
> >  >
> >  > > 1. solid code
> >  > so does the container i guess.
> >  >
> >  > >2. validation framework
> >  > This is one of those changes that could be added by
> >  > way of utility classes.
> >  > Have that Filter that autopopulates, check for
> >  > correct types like Struts.
> >  >
> >  > >3. tile framework
> >  > You can use it without Struts
> >  >
> >  > > 4. auto-population framework
> >  > It should be easy to add a Filter that autopopulates
> >  > a configured form (not
> >  > every time but as a standard).
> >  >
> >  > > 5. role based actions
> >  > I'm not sure what this is.
> >  >
> >  > >6. xml configuration of all the links or actions of
> >  > your application
> >  > So does web.xml i guess.
> >  >
> >  > >7. best practices framework bundling (scaffolding)
> >  > complete with examples (many years of experience
> >  > went
> >  > into this one).
> >  > Same thing as above.  There are tutorials, examples,
> >  > etc...
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > > 8. ease of use
> >  > If you think of a Servlet as an Action its kind of
> >  > as easy.  Except for some
> >  > repetative tasks that I would include to complete
> >  > the servlet spec (rather
> >  > than rewrite some of the container functionality to
> >  > add those utils).
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > -----Original Message-----
> >  > From: rajendra.x.yadav@verizon.com
> >  > [mailto:rajendra.x.yadav@verizon.com]
> >  > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:42 AM
> >  > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >  > Subject: Re: Struts MVC framework similar to that of
> >  > a servlet
> >  > container?
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Sandeep,
> >  > You mentioned role based actions in your list...
> >  > which has caught my eye.
> >  > Can you please elaborate on this ? Or point me to
> >  > some documentation ?
> >  >
> >  > thanks
> >  > -raj
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >                       "Sandeep Takhar"
> >  >                       <sandeep_takhar@y        To:
> >  >     "Struts Users
> >  > Mailing List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> >  >                       ahoo.com>                cc:
> >  >
> >  > Subject:  Re: Struts MVC
> >  > framework similar to that of a servlet container?
> >  >                       21/07/2003 06:08
> >  >                       PM
> >  >                       Please respond to
> >  >                       "Struts Users
> >  >                       Mailing List"
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > there's a lot of stuff it gives you out of the box.
>
=== message truncated ===


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