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From Adam Hardy <>
Subject Re: Life, the Universe and Everything (was: RE: [OT] RE: Memory usage)
Date Tue, 02 Mar 2004 12:55:57 GMT
I just found that mozilla had put this complete thread in my spam 
folder. Obviously mozilla's opinion on the content.

I found it interesting though.

Since we're talking about the quality of mailing lists, does anybody 
know which the best JBoss list is? The forum and associated mailing list 
at is not up to the standard I'm used to at Jakarta. In 
fact, I'm wondering whether there is an alternative at all actually.


On 03/02/2004 04:46 AM Andrew Hill wrote:
> Ive found the best way to avoid those kind of morons is to work at small
> companies where any deadwood has nowhere to hide and is quickly pruned :-)
> Our tech leads really know their stuff here.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chappell, Simon P []
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 March 2004 06:28
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Life, the Universe and Everything (was: RE: [OT] RE: Memory
> usage)
> While the original flame war was less helpful, the question that has emerged
> from it's ashes is a good one. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I
> can offer some personal observations. Feel free to disagree.
> 1. You can do nothing about those who choose not to learn. I've tried
> changing them and it doesn't work. I consider this a basic fact.
> 2. You have a great deal of control over your ability to learn. If you
> aren't big time into learning, then I recommend catching some enthusiasm for
> it.
> 3. There will be always be good and bad tech leads. I am a tech lead; I try
> to be a good one. I can put a String to standard out or standard error! ;-)
> 4. I had the same frustrations that you have. I made the decision that the
> best way to restore the balance of good in the universe, was to try to
> become the kind of tech lead that I would have wanted when I was a
> newbie/humble grunt. I teach a class on learning Java one lunchtime a week
> and try to bestow a little wisdom and encouragement whenever I can. I am a
> Java mentor here and I lead a study group of us that are seeking our Java
> Certification.
> 5. No one reads documentation. This is a fact. Learn what is "drop dead
> fired and escorted from the building" important and then try to
> auto-generate it. :-)
> 6. Leadership is a rare commodity. There's a lot of management out there,
> but precious little leadership. Again, deal with it. Become a leader and
> just do what needs to be done. This is what I have tended to do. The ol'
> saying about "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" is very true
> (except I sometimes forget to ask for forgiveness! :-)
> 7. Black team? How 90's, Our team wears Hawaiian shirts! (Honest. :-)
> Simon
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: P K []
>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:58 PM
>>Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Memory usage
>>Sorry to continue on this topic. I've learnt a great deal of
>>non struts stuff on this list and this only adds to it.
>>I've been bothered (mostly in my mind) with questions about
>>peoples capabilities and desires when it comes to work. Viru,
>>this original poster of the question on Memory Usage clearly
>>has a desire to learn, but what about people who don't? How do
>>you deal with them?
>>I currently work with a Tech Lead who wouldn't be able to
>>output a String to standard out if asked to write a program. I
>>don't care about her taking credit for the work that we do.
>>She doesn't provide any leadership whatsoever to the project
>>except produce paper that no one bothers to read. Have you
>>guys come across situations like this? What have you done
>>about it? Don't get me wrong - I am not prone to complaining
>>nor do I think I am a member of the elite 'Black Team'.
>>Quoting "Dhaliwal, Pritpal (HQP)" <>:
>>>I agree with everyone who has responded. We should not
>>clutter this very
>>>friendly mailing list with things that don't belong here,
>>that includes "not
>>>so nice" responses. I haven't been on many, but this is by
>>far my favorite
>>>list, even though I am mainly a spectator.
>>>I lashed out because this question clearly didn't belong
>>here. If the person
>>>had followed anything in
>>>it must that they were polite. They certainly didn't do much
>>>outside on the internet. The little bit of unfriendliness, I
>>dunno why it
>>>came out. Unprofessional, it shouldn't have came out.
>>Even questions that don't belong here deserve to be treated
>>with respect. That
>>is the single most obvious characteristic of STRUTS-USER that
>>is distinctive
>>(even though it has lots of other good qualities).
>>Unfortunately, you decided to unload on a poster in a manner
>>that is decidedly
>>out of the norm for STRUTS-USER. Your response is the kind of
>>behavior that
>>creates problems for the perception of open source projects as
>>being "friendly"
>>to users or not. If you think the topic is totally out of scope for
>>STRUTS-USER, then you should either (a) answer the question
>>anyway but point
>>people to where they should really be asking; (b) *gently*
>>encourage the user
>>to explore the other resources that are available (the
>>archives are full of
>>examples of folks who have done this), or (c) shut your yap
>>and press DELETE
>>instead of SUBMIT on your replies :-).
>>The culture of the STRUTS-USER list has always been
>>*deliberately* different
>>from the "you idiot, how could you be so stupid as to ask that
>>question in that
>>way" sort of attitude that far too many open source projects have.
>>Fortunately, despite the fact that this is the
>>most-subscribed-to user list at
>>Jakarta (ten short of 3000 at the moment), the occurrences of
>>rude behavior are
>>so rare that they immediately attract notice for being out of
>>character for
>>what we're trying to achieve :-). I'd say that we've been
>>doing a pretty good
>>job maintaining a friendly, welcoming, and helpful community.
>>I'd also like to
>>keep it that way.
>>Craig McClanahan
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struts 1.1 + tomcat 5.0.16 + java 1.4.2
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