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From Woodchuck <woodchuc...@yahoo.com>
Subject RE: MVC Frameworks
Date Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:02:09 GMT
hihi all,

i was also questioning frameworks and such.  i mean, i was happily
using Struts when all of a sudden so many 'off-spring' or 'hybrid'
frameworks started popping up from nowhere (Spring, Hibernate, Cocoon,
Tibco, JSF, Tapestry, <paste acronym here>).  why??  human nature.  it
is human nature to rock the boat, or else there is no progress.  this
is arguably good and bad.  someone will always think they can do
something better.  someone will always have an itch to improve on the
current situation.  this is why we have the gluttony of frameworks and
projects that are springing up.

given this, i realized it is pretty much futile to try and find the
best framework.  sadly, "it depends" is the answer.  i don't know who
has the time to compare exhaustively and extensively all the frameworks
that are available.  and even if this is done, it will most likely be
on a simple level, and not with the detail and depth of any reasonable
realistic website with concurrency / performance / security /
scalability / etc. etc. issues.  this kind of pet store lip service
comparison is not what i want to base my decision on.  none of the
projects i've worked on resemble anything close to such examples.  all
of my projects are living (evil) entities which change, give new
meaning to the term "scope creep", think they can do whatever they
want, bleh bleh.

so, in the end, basically given the lack of information, it really is
somewhat of an arbitrary decision.  a leap of faith!  just pick one and
roll with it.  whichever one you pick will do the job, and if it
doesn't, i'm sure you will mangle with it enough to meet your
requirements.  put another way, nothing you pick will end up being such
a disaster that cannot be fixed, anything is possible.  sure, the code
may end up wrangled and, dare i say, spaghetti-like, but isn't this the
real-world reality?

so i think a more appropriate question is, which framework can you get
the most support from, when the time comes when you will need it?  such
as this great mailing list! :)

my apologies,
woodchuck




--- Michael Oliver <oliverm@sourceonenet.com> wrote:

> I completely agree (did I say that to DJ?).
> 
> While you can start a flame war reminiscent of the "Wordstar vs.
> Word"
> or "Supercalc vs. Lotus" in the old days, with the question "Which
> Framework is best" the fact is, as Jack says, it "depends".  I prefer
> struts for what we are doing, primarily because we can extend it to
> meet
> our needs and we can put Velocity or Cocoon or even Axis out in front
> of
> it, or Hibernate, or Tibco behind it and we need not spend a lot of
> time
> or effort doing it.
> 
> Michael Oliver
> CTO
> Alarius Systems LLC
> 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1
> Las Vegas, NV 89115
> Phone:(702)643-7425
> Fax:(702)974-0341
> *Note new email changed from oliverm@matrix-media.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dakota Jack [mailto:dakota.jack@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:17 AM
> To: Justin Morgan
> Cc: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: MVC Frameworks
> 
> For my part, I still prefer Struts because I think it has a great
> potential if it endorses some move to IoC and does not fall off the
> strict web MVC pattern.  I have no time for the event-based
> frameworks
> like Echo, Tapestry, JSF, Shale, etc.  Others need that sort of
> thing.
>  What framework you choose depends a lot on what you want to do, the
> sophistication of your developers, etc.
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:44:26 -0600, Justin Morgan
> <JMorgan@d2hawkeye.com>
> wrote:
> > Thanks...
> > 
> > I recently picked up Rod Johnson's J2EE Design and Development
> (ISBN:
> > 0-7645-4385-7), and Chapter 12 is titled "Web-Tier MVC Design"... 
> I'm
> > going to assume this chapter is pretty similar to the one you
> mention.
> > 
> > I agree with you that this author is incredibly clear-minded, and
> I'm
> > soaking it all in.  Most of the book is model-neutral, and focuses
> more
> > on good practices and patterns, which is great because we have not
> > decided on a model yet.  But in chapter 12 he only really discusses
> > Struts, Maverick, and WebWork.  I was hoping for some commentary on
> JSF
> > and Tapestry as well, especially regarding why one might choose one
> over
> > the other.
> > 
> > It all boils down to two questions:
> > 1.  Why do you prefer Struts over any other web application
> framework?
> > (Tapestry, JSF, Maverick, WebWork, etc)
> > 2.  Why should _I_ prefer <insert framework here>?
> > 
> > The second question is not meant to make anyone defensive; I'm just
> > trying to get past
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > -Justin
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dakota Jack [mailto:dakota.jack@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:30 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: MVC Frameworks
> > 
> > Rod Johnson (author of Spring and one of the clearest thinkers I
> have
> > ever read IMHO) has a good discussion of the options in J2EE
> > Development without EJB in Chapter 13: Web Tier Design.
> > 
> > Jack
> > 
> > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:19:47 -0600, Justin Morgan
> <JMorgan@d2hawkeye.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Hi there,
> > >
> > > I am currently researching different web application
> frameworks...
> > JSF,
> > > Struts, and Tapestry specifically.  We are planning to migrate a
> large
> > > existing web application to a rigorous model 2 standard using one
> or
> > > more of these frameworks, and I am looking for more information
> on
> the
> > > differences between them.  My research thus far has turned up
> only a
> > few
> > > sources, and many of them seem religiously biased toward one of
> them.
> > >
> > > If any of you have opinions, or better yet, articles contrasting
> these
> > > technologies, please let me know.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > -Justin
> > >
> > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> > 
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 
> 



	
		
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