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From pc leung <pingcheu...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [OT] JSF Interface Design - Is it Truly Limited?
Date Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:55:20 GMT
Ronald,

I am a bit confused that MyFaces and Shale both implements JSF.
Why you need to use both? why not use one of them?
What about Struts-Faces? It integrates Struts and JSF.
Do you consider it?


On 11/14/05, Ronald Holshausen <uglyog@gmail.com> wrote:
> I use Shale, Tiles and MyFaces. The main reason for moving over is
> that JSF is being pushed by Sun as the standard for J2EE user
> interfaces, and is getting picked up by some of the big companies like
> Oracle, so I think it will gain a lot of momentum and support from
> most vendors. I also like the fact that your backing java beans don't
> need to implement any interfaces or extend base classes, which leaves
> your presentation java code more independent of the JSF APIs.
>
> On 14/11/05, pc leung <pingcheungl@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  Ronald
> >
> > I am also thinking of switching to JSF. Do you use Shale, MyFaces or Sun JSF?
> > Any reasons your company starts to use JSF as I am standing at the
> > cross road of Struts and JSF?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/14/05, Ronald Holshausen <uglyog@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > I have switched from struts to JSF for our companies product
> > > development, as I can say that JSF is totally CSS oriented. Each
> > > control has a CSS class as a property, and a lot of the tomahawk
> > > components provide their own base CSS classes by default (have a look
> > > at the tabbed pane from tomahawk as an example).
> > >
> > > I agree with you about the mock-ups. With our development, the process
> > > starts with the graphic artists who do the demos and new product
> > > concepts in pure html and CSS with tools like Dreamweaver, etc. Then
> > > the developers convert the HTML to JSPs and write the backing java.
> > > This works the same with struts and JSF.
> > >
> > > Have a look at the clay component from shale, as this supports this
> > > type of development process more fully as you could then use the
> > > generated HTML from the graphic artists directly, just add some ids
> > > much like Tapestry does.
> > >
> > > On 12/11/05, Gary VanMatre <gvanmatre@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > I know there are some leading edge JSF and Shale gurus who monitor
this list. I
> > > > > have a basic
> > > > > question: Can rich web application interfaces be created in JSF?
> > > > >
> > > > > I've looked at MyFaces and Tomahawk (http://myfaces.apache.org/).
The source
> > > > > code that can be
> > > > > found in the examples at http://www.irian.at/myfaces/home.jsf is
perplexing. I
> > > > > see data tables,
> > > > > panel groups, and panel grids for the page layout. I do not see standards
based
> > > > > CSS design. I
> > > > > don't see how you could create rich web application interfaces with
externalized
> > > > > styles using JSF
> > > > > components.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know the concept is that JSF components can be "rendered" for different
> > > > > viewing devices;
> > > > > however, I'm not sure the creators of JSF really thought through
the process of
> > > > > how most web
> > > > > applications are created. I think the usual case is that a mock up
of the web
> > > > > interface is
> > > > > created by marketing execs and web designers, then that mock up is
"wired" by
> > > > > software engineers
> > > > > (in our case we use Struts for the wiring). CSS design is very advanced
(see:
> > > > > http://www.csszengarden.com/). It is unrealistic to think companies
are going
> > > > > to retrain their
> > > > > web designers on a new technology that is less capable then the one
they are
> > > > > currently using.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a specific example, the use of such tags in JSF as,
> > > > > "
> > > > " is
> > > > > horrible.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think JSF has missed the mark. Rather than tossing out Struts I
think Sun
> > > > > should have enhanced
> > > > > Struts by creating a simple process for plugging in web components
(perhaps some
> > > > > sort of enhanced
> > > > > Tiles strategy) and they should have also enhanced Struts by adding
a better
> > > > > page flow process
> > > > > (similar to Spring WebFlow).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think that if you take a better look at JSF, you might see Struts, Spring
and a reusable visual component framework.  To see this you have to look beyond the basic
semantics.  So, maybe a forward is called a navigation rule and validation is component based
verses form based.
> > > >
> > > > I've always seen Struts as building blocks for the rest of the application.
 It provides the foundation, a starting point.  Each shop seems to pick and choose different
extension points to exploit.
> > > > JSF provides the same model where extension points in the framework are
configured via a configuration file.  The framework guts can be swapped with a side of a configuration
files.  JSF expands on this by providing an API for building visual components that have characteristics
of event oriented programming in a request response architecture.  The component API is a
starting point.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that the reference implementation delivers a number of vanilla
components is a strength but maybe a weakness.  The component API should be seen as building
blocks and not as absolute offering.  I don't think that Struts would have lead as many projects
to success if the developers could not have seen how to take advantage of is swappable parts.
> > > >
> > > > > One of the most promising projects for web application frameworks
is a project
> > > > > named, "Clarity"
> > > > > (http://www.jsfcentral.com/listings/A6020?link). The goal of this
project is to
> > > > > consolidate and
> > > > > enhance existing frameworks. I hope this is the path to nirvana.
> > > > >
> > > > > I like the JSF concept of pluggable components. My major problem
with JSF is
> > > > > the design strategy
> > > > > that states an application is a collection of components and these
components
> > > > > have renderers for
> > > > > different devices. I suppose that you could try to wrap CSS design
around
> > > > > "" tags if you
> > > > > are creating a web application, but this seems contrary to the JSF
model.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please share some guiding thoughts. Especially, if you have a link
to some cool
> > > > > example pages
> > > > > created with JSF, I'd like to see them.
> > > > >
> > > > You might take a look at the Shale "rolodex" usecases.  You will see some
fun CSS action delivered using a JSF view.  It's all done using only two custom components
and  a few JSF extension points, the rest is vanilla RI.
> > > > http://svn.apache.org/builds/struts/nightly/struts-shale/
> > > >
> > > > > Thx.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > Gary
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
> > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com
> > > > >
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