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From "Alexandre Poitras" <alexandre.poit...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Date Sun, 19 Mar 2006 04:54:01 GMT
I think struts has reached Slashdot status. There are so many
religious war lately.

On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <melowe@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <paul4christ79@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> >
> > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in Craig's
> > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action Framework...
> > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
>
> I can see some of the limitations of applying darwinian selection, but
> at the end of the day if one asks why some things last and others
> don't I don't think that success can only be a function of the talents
> and passion of a group of engineers. I'm not saying every one involved
> isn't talented and passionate. But if these "products" didn't have a
> use/application and at least some people were using them with success
> then they wouldn't survive.
>
> Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
> implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
>
> I totally agree that there are some great ideas, shale gives you all
> the struts toys with any jsf implementation. Likewise traditional
> struts (action) is full of goodness, and we find ourselves on the user
> list for one motive or another. But if lots of products using these
> frameworks started costing too much to develop, maintain etc then
> they'd be less likely to survive.
>
> Thats not the same as saying that these products are created out of a
> blind passionless, talentless process. And I agree that the proximal
> causation for the success of such endevours can be attributed to
> these, but then betamax lost and vhs won. there are more wintel
> machines than macs. evolution isn't perfect its good enough.
>
> Mark
>
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- Mark Lowe <melowe@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > time to be silly as well..
> > >
> > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > >
> > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
> > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
> > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
> > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > >
> > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
> > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
> > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
> > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > better chance.
> > >
> > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
> > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
> > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
> > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > >
> > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > >
> > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sraeburn@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer
at a
> > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables
a
> > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
> > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
solving
> > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone
a
> > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
Others
> > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking
on
> > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it wasn't
> > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself
for
> > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > >
> > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't
any
> > > > > added/assumed responsibility.  One would hope they have their own
> > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > > > > that's about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
make
> > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like me.
 In
> > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer.  At least in my eyes,
> > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > >
> > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate
my
> > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > >
> > > > >> Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank
> > > > >
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--
Alexandre Poitras
Qu├ębec, Canada

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